Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 07-05-2013, 08:47 PM

Indeed look at the Samaritan Torah for a moment and see that איש is always taken to have special significance in critical verses.

Here is the Samaritan text for Joseph's encounter with the איש

Quote:

11 And Yishraael said to Yoosef, Are not your brothers pasturing in Ashkem. Come, and I will send you to them. And he said to him, I will. 14 And he said to him, Go please, and see how your brothers are, and how the flock is, and bring word back to me. And he sent him from the valley of Eebrone, and he came to Ashkema. 15 And איש found him, and behold, he was wandering in the field. And איש asked him, What are you looking for. 16 And he said, I am looking for my brothers, please tell me where they are pasturing. 17 And איש said, They have moved from here, for I heard them say, Let us go to Dooten. And Yoosef went after his brothers and found them at Dooten. 18 And they saw him from a distance. And before he came close to them, they plotted against him to put him to death.

Benny's margin notes:

Quote:

איש - Name of angel. The Samaritan Sages in their tradition always considered the “man” to be an angel.

http://books.google.com/books?id=-wn...%27ish&f=false

Davka · 07-05-2013, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Could it be that the Marcionite god was called 'the Stranger' merely because his name איש is inherently ambiguous and 'strange'?

IMO that's overthinking it. I agree with the idea that simply saying HaIsh denotes a stranger or as-yet-unidentified person, and that seems to me like plenty of correlation between "ish" and "stranger" without any reference to the name itself being pretty weird.

But what do I know? I'm just some guy on a message board.

stephan huller · 07-05-2013, 08:53 PM

Your opinion matters. I wouldn't be posting things here if I thought it were a good thing not to get input from outsiders. Thanks

Davka · 07-05-2013, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Indeed look at the Samaritan Torah for a moment and see that איש is always taken to have special significance in critical verses.

Here is the Samaritan text for Joseph's encounter with the איש

Quote:

11 And Yishraael said to Yoosef, Are not your brothers pasturing in Ashkem. Come, and I will send you to them. And he said to him, I will. 14 And he said to him, Go please, and see how your brothers are, and how the flock is, and bring word back to me. And he sent him from the valley of Eebrone, and he came to Ashkema. 15 And איש found him, and behold, he was wandering in the field. And איש asked him, What are you looking for. 16 And he said, I am looking for my brothers, please tell me where they are pasturing. 17 And איש said, They have moved from here, for I heard them say, Let us go to Dooten. And Yoosef went after his brothers and found them at Dooten. 18 And they saw him from a distance. And before he came close to them, they plotted against him to put him to death.

Benny's margin notes:

Quote:

איש - Name of angel. The Samaritan Sages in their tradition always considered the “man” to be an angel.

http://books.google.com/books?id=-wn...%27ish&f=false

Do you know if the word is always simply איש ish in the Samaritan account? In the Hebrew Masoretic, it's איש the first time (in verse 15), but האיש ha'ish (the man) in all the following instances. If the Samaritan text really says simply איש ish, that would seem to be pretty strong evidence for the word being used as a proper name.

stephan huller · 07-05-2013, 09:10 PM

But that's the reason why it makes sense to call him 'the stranger' (if I were a Marcionite). You have this figure only referred to as 'a man' weaving his way throughout the narrative of the Pentateuch. He's not the 'Jewish god.' Who is he? 'A man this ...' 'A man that ...' 'A man said this...' When you read contemporary accounts of his presence he's repeatedly referenced as 'the stranger' of the Pentateuch. Let me start to cite some examples just from attempts to explain this figure's appearance in Genesis 32 - let alone all the other places he appears:

1.

Quote:

"Jacob remained alone. A stranger [ish] wrestled with him until just before daybreak" (Genesis 32:25).

This awesome and eerie wrestling match presents a number of questions. First of all, how can one remain alone if he is engaged in a wrestling match; it takes two to wrestle.

Second, who is this 'stranger' called 'ish' in the Torah? Many of the commentators identify this mysterious 'ish' as none other than the guardian angel of Esau. http://www.ohrtorahstone.org.il/pars...yishlach61.htm

2.

Quote:

Who was the ish, the one with whom Jacob wrestled during the ... Was the stranger the haunting and stalking shadow of Jacob's father, Isaac? Was the stranger God? Was the ish Jacob himself, that is, the other side or sides of Jacob?4 Who was encountered that night? James F. Moore Post Shoah Dialogues: Re-Thinking Our Texts Together - Page 54

3.

Quote:

The night before Jacob was to encounter his known enemy, Esau, he was attacked by a mysterious stranger, described simply as ish (a man). Jacob attempted to learn the name of his opponent, but was unsuccessful. He remained nameless. Saul Weiss, Insights of Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik: Discourses, Page 129

4.

Quote:

He is described as the Ish, meaning “the person” or “the stranger.” Jacob, Isaac's son, was also lonely. After years of fleeing from his brother Esau, fearing that he would be killed by him, Jacob finally decided that he had to confront him. David Aaron, The God-Powered Life: Awakening to Your Divine Purpose, Page 29

5.

Quote:

"An unnamed stranger, an ish (literally, a man), came and wrestled with Jacob through the night, putting his hip out of joint in the struggle. When dawn approached, the assailant asked Jacob to let go. Jacob resisted, demanding to be blessed." Helen P. Fry, Christian-Jewish Dialogue: A Reader - Page 175

6.

Quote:

Our struggle, especially today, is symbolically the same struggle that faced Jacob as he confronted the mysterious stranger at the Jabok ford: Twn mby ty my «w paNn And a man (ish) wrestled with him until the break of dawn (Genesis 32:25). Joseph Dov Soloveitchik, Derashot ha-Rav: - Page 190

7.

Quote:

It is noteworthy, I think, that the stranger is often treated as the human persona of thedivine. Indeed what appears as an all-too-human stranger, emerging out of the night towrestle with us, is only subsequently recognized as divine. The Latin translation of the Hebrew eesh/iysh as vir in Latin and anthropos in Greek carries this sense across multiple tongues. Though some English versions speak here of ‘angels’, most remain faithful tothe original biblical sense of the divine revealing itself in and through the human, e.g.‘Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until daybreak’(Gen 32.24). And, we realizes that he has been marked and blessed by the ‘Face of God’ (Peniel). God isrevealed après coup, in the wake of the encounter, in the trace of his passing. And thisepisode demonstrates that if divinity moves towards us kataphatically in the face of the stranger, it also absolves itself apophatically from the immediate grasp of cognition.When God is revealed as having been present all the time, God is already gone. That iswhy God remains a stranger even in the most intimate embrace: ‘for my thoughts are notyour thoughts and my ways are not your ways’ (Isaiah 55.8). [Richard Kearney, Anatheism: Returning to God After God - Page 22]

8.

Quote:

Then, as the text begins, Jacob is alone on the other side, and immediately we are told that a mysterious ish, an ominous, unidentified man, struggles with him ... who is this mysterious stranger? [Alan Lew, Be Still and Get Going: A Jewish Meditation Practice for Real Life]

9.

Quote:

A stranger enters Jacob's tent and begins to wrestle with him. The Bible calls this individual an ish. An ish could be a man. An ish could be an angel or a divine messenger. An ish could be God. We can't be sure. [Levi Meier, Ancient Secrets: Using the Stories of the Bible to Improve Our ... - Page 42]

10.

Quote:

In the original text of Genesis 32, Jacob wrestles with a stranger who is initially described as a man, an ish: "va-ye 'avek ish 'imo" (32:25). The man wounds Jacob in his hip before Jacob asks for a blessing from him. In blessing Jacob, the man changes his name to Yisrael meaning that Jacob has "striven with God and men and prevailed." It is only at this point that it becomes clear to the reader and to Jacob that Jacob has in fact been wrestling with the divine in human form. When Jacob names the site where this happens "Peniel," he explains that he has seen the face of God. [Claire Emily Sufrin, Martin buber's biblical hermeneutics - Page 45]

Davka · 07-05-2013, 09:45 PM

OK, so this is primarily a post-talmudic conversation that's going on? That would explain my confusion and ignorance.

stephan huller · 07-05-2013, 09:56 PM

I mean, it's what is written in the text. There's no specific reference to the term 'stranger' but as I said when there's just some guy called 'the man' running through the text, how else are you going to describe the person. It's not specific to time or interpretation. It's what the Hebrew text invokes. That doesn't change over time. The Samaritans think the same way about him.

Grog · 07-05-2013, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I mean, it's what is written in the text. There's no specific reference to the term 'stranger' but as I said when there's just some guy called 'the man' running through the text, how else are you going to describe the person. It's not specific to time or interpretation. It's what the Hebrew text invokes. That doesn't change over time. The Samaritans think the same way about him.

I appreciate your knowledge, Stephan. However, I have to admit that I don't understand 90% of what you write. Except your blog posts, I get those.

stephan huller · 07-05-2013, 11:26 PM

Well obviously I am failing then. I don't know what to say. If I oversimplify the understanding someone will criticize me for being too general of vague. I am just really tired. Another thought though.

Quote:

No man, says the Samaritan, can please God unless he believes with all his heart and soul in Moses the servant and Man of God. We use the capital 'M' always in this connection because of the unique Samaritan stress on the Hebrew phrase on the Hebrew phrase, ish ha-elohim, 'the man of God' [John MacDonald, Theology of the Samaritans p. 150]

Do you understand that the Samaritans (like everyone else) thinks Moses was God MShH = ShMH the Name (HShM in Judaism)? He's the man of God because he met the איש. Just look at Jacob. He meets the איש and then takes on his name somehow (= Israel). Joseph too meets the איש and then curiously he too appears as a stranger to his brothers just like the איש. There is something here about a hidden cosmic איש who visits mankind in secret. Sort of like the guy called Jesus (but written ΙΣ in the earliest manuscripts).

stephan huller · 07-05-2013, 11:31 PM

Let me try again. The question is - when the Marcionites said that the guy called ΙΣ in our manuscripts was both a man of war (= ish milechamah Ex 15:3) was also a stranger was this 'stranger' concept a completely unrelated idea (i.e. just a guy from outer space, a space alien etc) or because he was the ish of the Pentateuch who happened to also be well established as having a hidden presence (i.e. in Genesis 32, 37 etc). In other words, is his 'strangeness' merely a by product of his familiar 'role' in the Pentateuch. Don't know if that helps.

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07-05-2013, 08:53 PM	#53
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Your opinion matters. I wouldn't be posting things here if I thought it were a good thing not to get input from outsiders. Thanks

07-05-2013, 09:45 PM	#56
Davka Contributor Join Date: May 2010 Location: Babble Belt Posts: 20,748	OK, so this is primarily a post-talmudic conversation that's going on? That would explain my confusion and ignorance.

07-05-2013, 09:56 PM	#57
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I mean, it's what is written in the text. There's no specific reference to the term 'stranger' but as I said when there's just some guy called 'the man' running through the text, how else are you going to describe the person. It's not specific to time or interpretation. It's what the Hebrew text invokes. That doesn't change over time. The Samaritans think the same way about him.

07-05-2013, 11:31 PM	#60
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Let me try again. The question is - when the Marcionites said that the guy called ΙΣ in our manuscripts was both a man of war (= ish milechamah Ex 15:3) was also a stranger was this 'stranger' concept a completely unrelated idea (i.e. just a guy from outer space, a space alien etc) or because he was the ish of the Pentateuch who happened to also be well established as having a hidden presence (i.e. in Genesis 32, 37 etc). In other words, is his 'strangeness' merely a by product of his familiar 'role' in the Pentateuch. Don't know if that helps.

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