Freethought & Rationalism Archive

watersbeak · 09-14-2013, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

BTW. This is our first useful conversation ever.

Well I hope its not our last.

Despite our differences (of opinions, hypothesis and starting-places) all participants should be still be quite capable of learning at least something useful from each other. Everyone here has taught me something.

Bravo, mountainman, well written.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephan Huller

It seems that Origen's works were found in the public library at Tyre.

NO. Let me rewrite that for you, using the convention which is popular in some other fora, even if not here, at this "private forum" :

Quote:

"According to the 19th century writer, Titus Mooney Merriman, it seems that Origen's works were found in the public library at Tyre."

http://books.google.com/books?id=Rh4...20tyre&f=false

I have not read Titus Mooney Merriman, and I am not doubting his name.

I don't know what Mr. Merriman's evidence is.

Does Stephan Huller?

How does anyone know if "Origen's works" had been placed in a library at Tyre, or anywhere else, during Origen's lifetime?

We find a document, or a scrap of papyrus somewhere, anywhere, and then conclude, that it had been placed in that location 1500 or 2000 years ago, and left undisturbed thereafter? What a fanciful dream. I certainly disagree with Mr. Huller, that my consternation at folk's ready acceptance of popularly held beliefs, represents "kookoo" thinking. No wonder I am on the "ignore list".

Sam

stephan huller · 09-14-2013, 07:17 AM

That's wonderful Sam. I don't understand why you have chosen to bring your wisdom to this particular thread. Is there a chance you could go to another thread? Your comments belong in a thread entitled 'is historical knowledge possible?' or 'is all history lies?' not in this thread. Bye bye.

James The Least · 09-14-2013, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

That's wonderful. Why is it more likely the official Roman libraries had junk than the real thing?

It's quite possible that a Roman library had a copy of the LXX, but that cannot be inferred from the Apuleius quote.

If a Roman library had anything on Zoroastrianism, it most likely would have been recently written Greek pseudepigrapha, not authentic Avestan books translated into Latin. Moses's reputation as a "magician" surely inspired similar
pulp fiction in the Mediterranean world. The Paris Magical Papyri serves as an example.

James The Least · 09-14-2013, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by watersbeak

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

BTW. This is our first useful conversation ever.

Well I hope its not our last.

Despite our differences (of opinions, hypothesis and starting-places) all participants should be still be quite capable of learning at least something useful from each other. Everyone here has taught me something.

Bravo, mountainman, well written.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephan Huller

It seems that Origen's works were found in the public library at Tyre.

NO. Let me rewrite that for you, using the convention which is popular in some other fora, even if not here, at this "private forum" :

Quote:

"According to the 19th century writer, Titus Mooney Merriman, it seems that Origen's works were found in the public library at Tyre."

http://books.google.com/books?id=Rh4...20tyre&f=false

I have not read Titus Mooney Merriman, and I am not doubting his name.

I don't know what Mr. Merriman's evidence is.

Does Stephan Huller?

How does anyone know if "Origen's works" had been placed in a library at Tyre, or anywhere else, during Origen's lifetime?

We find a document, or a scrap of papyrus somewhere, anywhere, and then conclude, that it had been placed in that location 1500 or 2000 years ago, and left undisturbed thereafter? What a fanciful dream. I certainly disagree with Mr. Huller, that my consternation at folk's ready acceptance of popularly held beliefs, represents "kookoo" thinking. No wonder I am on the "ignore list".

Sam

Titus Mooney Merriman!

Sounds like the name of some border radio evangelist from the '50s.

aa5874 · 09-14-2013, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James The Least

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

That's wonderful. Why is it more likely the official Roman libraries had junk than the real thing?

It's quite possible that a Roman library had a copy of the LXX, but that cannot be inferred from the Apuleius quote.

If a Roman library had anything on Zoroastrianism, it most likely would have been recently written Greek pseudepigrapha, not authentic Avestan books translated into Latin. Moses's reputation as a "magician" surely inspired similar
pulp fiction in the Mediterranean world. The Paris Magical Papyri serves as an example.

The LXX is NOT the product of Jesus cult Christians so has no relevancy to the OP. The LXX was a product of Jews specifically to be placed in an Alexandrian Library in the time of Ptolemy II.

Antiquities of the Jews 12

Quote:

But in the morning they came to the court and saluted Ptolemy, and then went away to their former place, where, when they had washed their hands, (10) and purified themselves, they betook themselves to the interpretation of the laws.

Now when the law was transcribed, and the labor of interpretation was over, which came to its conclusion in seventy-two days, Demetrius gathered all the Jews together to the place where the laws were translated, and where the interpreters were, and read them over....

The LXX, a Greek copy of Hebrew Scriptures, was written at least 200 years before the Jesus story and cult and did not originate with Jesus cult Christians.

watersbeak · 09-14-2013, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I think this is significant too. Closes the book on the argument I believe:

Quote:

Eusebius himself speaks of a public library at Rome where one could find Philo's book On Virtues (Church History ii. 18. 8) as well as the writings of Josephus (iii. 9. 2). He wrote his own works, however, in reliance on the church libraries at Jerusalem and Caesarea.http://books.google.com/books?id=vCj...=0CDcQ6AEwADgy

Indeed I think the language suggests that all the works of Philo could be found in the libraries:

Quote:

After these was composed by him the work On the Contemplative Life, or On Suppliants, from which we have drawn the facts concerning the life of the apostolic men; and still further, the Interpretation of the Hebrew Names in the Law and in the Prophets are said to be the result of his industry. And he is said to have read in the presence of the whole Roman Senate during the reign of Claudius the work which he had written, when he came to Rome under Caius, concerning Caius' hatred of the gods, and to which, with ironical reference to its character, he had given the title On the Virtues. And his discourses were so much admired as to be deemed worthy of a place in the libraries.

and again:

Quote:

He (Josephus) was the most noted of all the Jews of that day, not only among his own people, but also among the Romans, so that he was honored by the erection of a statue in Rome, and his works were deemed worthy of a place in the library.

Runia seems to accept the existence of Philo's writings in Rome and pagan use of those manuscripts:

http://books.google.com/books?id=3Jy...ies%22&f=false

'Josephus' or one of his synergoi copied Philo's writings from the Roman public libraries:

http://books.google.com/books?id=qIt...ies%22&f=false

Not that Philo and Josephus are uninteresting, they are. But, they are not Christian.

Which author of second, third, or fourth century, before Constantine, references the existence of the four gospels located in a public library?

Sam

stephan huller · 09-14-2013, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Not that Philo and Josephus are uninteresting, they are. But, they are not Christian.

But why should Jews and Christians have been treated differently in an age where we have repeated testimony that both had won the favor of Emperors of that period? Julius Africanus was a Christian and his Kestoi were certainly in the library he built at Rome. If this dates to the reign of Caracalla, the Jewish testimony regarding Imperial favor shown from 'Antoninus' is one and the same. 180 - 238 CE was a golden age for the church of Rome. Then came the dark period for the Empire and favor shown to Paul of Samosata by Zenobia. Then the re-conquest of Decius maintaining official relations with the Roman Church that manifest themselves during the punishment of Paul of Samosata. Then the period of persecutions until Constantine.

I am absolutely certain that Christian texts were to be found in SOME of the public libraries in the Empire in the third century. Origen and the public library of Tyre is just one example of that phenomenon. Julius Africanus another. The question is does that go back into the reign of Commodus and the late second century?

aa5874 · 09-14-2013, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

....I am absolutely certain that Christian texts were to be found in SOME of the public libraries in the Empire in the third century. Origen and the public library of Tyre is just one example of that phenomenon. Julius Africanus another. The question is does that go back into the reign of Commodus and the late second century?

Again, your statement is purely speculative and cannot be corroborated.

Not a single writing of Julius Africanus have been found. None has been found in a Library and NO writer of the 2nd century has claimed that Julius Africanus founded a library.

In writings attributed to Irenaeus ONLY the Septuagint, a Greek version of Hebrew Scriptures, assembled by Jews since the 2 century BCE is mentioned in a Library of Alexandria.

Irenaeus' Against Heresies"

Quote:

For before the Romans possessed their kingdom,(12) while as yet the Macedonians held Asia, Ptolemy the son of Lagus, being anxious to adorn the library which he had founded in Alexandria, with a collection of the writings of all men, which were [works] of merit,made request to the people of Jerusalem, that they should have their Scriptures translated into the Greek language.

There is no mention of any Christian Jesus cult writings in any library in 2nd century works like Aristides, Justin, Theophilus of Antioch, Athenagoras, Minucius Felix, and others.

stephan huller · 09-14-2013, 12:34 PM

Its not entirely speculative. Learn to read and think

watersbeak · 09-14-2013, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephan Huller

I am absolutely certain that Christian texts were to be found in SOME of the public libraries in the Empire in the third century. Origen and the public library of Tyre is just one example of that phenomenon.

And, I am absolutely certain that you have not addressed either question, let me ask again:

Quote:

Originally Posted by watersbeak

Which author of second, third, or fourth century, before Constantine, references the existence of the four gospels located in a public library?

Quote:

Originally Posted by watersbeak

http://books.google.com/books?id=Rh4...20tyre&f=false

I have not read Titus Mooney Merriman, and I am not doubting his name.

I don't know what Mr. Merriman's evidence is.

Does Stephan Huller?

Sam

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09-14-2013, 07:17 AM	#132
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	That's wonderful Sam. I don't understand why you have chosen to bring your wisdom to this particular thread. Is there a chance you could go to another thread? Your comments belong in a thread entitled 'is historical knowledge possible?' or 'is all history lies?' not in this thread. Bye bye.

09-14-2013, 12:34 PM	#139
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Its not entirely speculative. Learn to read and think

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