aa5874

Your claim is a total fallacy and without a shred of evidence.

The Greeks and Romans were not known to have visions of their Gods before they were introduced in their religion.

Please tell us when the Greeks and Romans had visions of these Gods??
Aphrodite /Venus
Apollo/ Apollo
Ares/ Mars
Artemis/ Diana
Athena/ Minerva
Demeter/ Ceres
Hades/ Pluto
Hera/ Juno
Hermes/ Mercury
Hestia/ Vesta
Kronos/ Saturn
Persephone/ Proserpina
Poseidon/ Neptune
Zeus/ Jupiter


It is completely unsubstantiated that Christianity was expected to start with visions.

In the very Canon, "Paul" had his visions AFTER Jesus was raised from the dead and had NO vision of Jesus in Acts of the Apostles on the DAY he was supposedly converted.

Paul ONLY heard a voice--See Acts 9 &26

Acts 9 Acts 26:14 KJV The Pauline writers are NOT corropborated in Acts.

"Paul" had NO visions and was converted by a VOICE in Acts.

outhouse

But in biblical times, it is stated, they did.


I believe that was from Marvin meyers or Crossan.

Cognoscenti324

These would all seem to be most applicable in describing visions. None of them appear to have anything to do with sleep or dreams.

3.
an experience in which a personage, thing, or event appears vividly or credibly to the mind, although not actually present, often under the influence of a divine or other agency: a heavenly messenger appearing in a vision. Compare hallucination.

4.
something seen or otherwise perceived during such an experience: The vision revealed its message.

5.
a vivid, imaginative conception or anticipation: visions of wealth and glory.

aa5874

Vision, hallucinations, dreams, and voices in one's head cannot be corroborated and are not sources of historical facts.

The Pauline Corpus is completely useless as an historical source for Jesus Christ the Son of God who was raised from the dead.

The Pauline writer did admit that there were already Scriptures that Jesus Died for our Sins, was buried, and was raised on the THIRD day.

Those Scriptures are found in the Late stories of Jesus--NOT the earlier gMark in the Codex Sinaiticus and NOT in the O/T of the Septuagint.


The Gospel in the EARLIER gMark is that the Kingdom of God was at hand----NOT that Jesus died for our sins by his crucifixion.

Even Apologetic sources ADMITTED that Paul was alive AFTER gLuke was composed.

See Commentary on Mathhew 1 and Church History 25.

gLuke is mentioned by name sometime in the late 2nd century or later.

outhouse

Agreed.

Doesnt mean primitive people didnt place importance on them.

Cognoscenti324

Of course. My point is in counter to the assertion that religion does not have its roots in the rational mind - that of an ancient 'dreamer' who extrapolates from a simple dream experience to a 'spirit world'. No concept of a 'vision' is required as the genesis of religious mysticism. Dreams are a sufficient cause.

outhouse

Do you know of any religions started from a dream?

Cognoscenti324

Yes, all of them.

They started eons ago, from the first dream of a tribal leader as I outlined earlier. A dream of a dead person becomes a ghost, which becomes a spirit, which is then seen as the mystical power behind thunder, lightning, the sun, the moon - then the owners of fertility, the harvest .... ad infinitum.

aa5874

It is most fascinating that you have no evidence for your own dream [speculation] yet attempt to write history of dreams.

Please, tell us about those "dreams" of yours from a tribal leader.

You must have dreamt up your tribal leaders' religion.

outhouse

I can buy part of that.

In remote tribes and villages fire and smoke deities and well as other natural aspects can be attributed to many deities besides a dream of a person.