Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 09-10-2013, 09:01 AM

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Originally Posted by stephan huller

I strongly suspect they were. Here are my reasons for thinking so:

1. Celsus draws on a wide range of sources. I don't think he was purchasing Christian manuscripts and keeping them in a private collection.

The refuter of Celsus Origen supposedly had the ONE AND TRUE Christian library in which not only the LXX was preserved and tabulated against various other translations, but the canonical books of the NT were also SUPPOSEDLY preserved. Do we need any more libraries in the great hunt for the Easter Bunny?

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2. Part of the Catholic Church's effort to distinguish themselves from the heresies was their openness. They didn't have secret gospels. (Praescr Haer 22) What better way to demonstrate their openness than have their books in public libraries?

The so-called orthodox so-called Catholic Church representatives supposedly BORROWED secret gospels like gPeter. See the reference above. Thus Eusebius implies the heretics had libraries. But Eusebius had the library of Origen.

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3. If Christians preached openly then what would stop them from wanting their books held in public libraries?

Maybe the calibre of their books was not up to standard. The Second Sophistic was in progress. Koine Greek was for the commoners.

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4. I think that the apologetic works - especially appeals to the Emperor - would have wanted to gain as great an audience as possible.

These are more than likely pious forgeries.

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5. Tert., Apol. 31.1 (142,5-6 DEK.) says that Christians do not hide their books which "many occasions transfer to outsiders."

How would any literate Greek read these books with their nomina sacra?

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Originally Posted by AM

We all know the story of the man who went into a London bookshop and asked for a New Testament in Greek. The assistant retired to a back room and after ten minutes came back with a grave look: ‘Strange, sir, but Greek seems to be the only language into which the New Testament has not yet been translated.’ The story may remind us of two facts. The first is that there was a time in which the New Testament was only available in Greek.

The second and more important is that at that time it was as difficult as it is now to find a bookshop with a New, or for that matter an Old, Testament in Greek. About A.D. 180 a man like Galen could walk into a bookshop only to discover that they were selling an unauthorized edition of his own lectures. But though he was interested in the Christians, Galen would hardly have found a Bible.

The Bible was no literature for the pagan.
Its Greek was not elegant enough.

Lactantius noted: ‘apud sapientes et doctos et principes huius saeculi scriptura sancta fide care(a)t (Inst.v.1.15).

If we find a pagan who had a slight acquaintance with the Bible, such as the anonymous author of On the Sublime, we suspect direct Jewish influence: justifiedly so, because the author of the Sublime was a student of Caecilius of Calacte, who, to all appearances was a Jew (11). Normally the educated pagans of the Roman empire knew nothing about either Jewish or Christian history. If they wanted some information about the Jews, they picked up second-hand distortions such as we read in Tacitus. The consequence was that a direct acquaintance with Jewish or Christian history normally came together with conversion to Judaism or to Christianity. People learnt a new history because they acquired a new religion. Conversion meant literally the discovery of a new history from Adam and Eve to contemporary events.

Pagan and Christian Historiography
in the Fourth Century A.D.
* This essay first appeared in A. Momigliano, ed.,
The Conflict Between Paganism and Christianity in the Fourth Century,
The Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1963, pp. 79—99 (1)

Lactantius noted: ‘apud sapientes et doctos et principes huius saeculi scriptura sancta fide care(a)t (Inst.v.1.15).

How is this translated?

From google ...

among the learned and the wise men and the princes of this world, the Holy Scripture, faith lacks

aa5874 · 09-10-2013, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Some Christians were in secret; he also mentions that the members of the 'great Church' did not share the views of heretics.

The Jesus cult of Christians SPECIFICALLY operated [taught and practiced] in secret and it was acknowledged by Origen. In fact, Origen claimed it was the right and safe thing to do when UNDER a despoctic government of the Devil.

Examine the words of Origen.

Origen's Against Celsus 1

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...For as those persons would do well who should enter into a secret association in order to put to death a tyrant who had seized upon the liberties of a state, so Christians also, when tyrannized over by him who is called the devil, and by falsehood, form leagues contrary to the laws of the devil, against his power, and for the safety of those others whom they may succeed in persuading to revolt from a government which is, as it were, “Scythian,” and despotic.

The Jesus cult of Christians were in HIDING in the 2nd century during the time of Celsus.

The Jesus cult worshiped a Jewish God/man as the Messianic ruler and Creator of heaven and earth contrary to Roman rule and paid NO allegiance to the Roman Emperors.

It is just totally absurd that Jesus cult writings would have been found in libraries of the Roman Empire in the 2nd century when the Romans would EXECUTE any person or followers of any person who claimed to the Messianic ruler of the Roman Empire, especially when such a person was believed to be a Jew.

Around, c 133 CE, the Romans virtually FLATTENED Jerusalem and utterly destroyed the Jewish Temple when Simon Barchocheba was considered a Jewish Messianic ruler.

Examine Cassius' Dio Roman History.

Cassius Dio's Roman HistoryLXIX

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....Fifty of their most important outposts and nine hundred and eighty-five of their most famous villages were razed to the ground.

Five hundred and eighty thousand men were slain in the various raids and battles, and the number of those that perished by famine, disease and fire was past finding out.

2 Thus nearly the whole of Judaea was made desolate, a result of which the people had had forewarning before the war.

In the 2nd century the Romans were actively engaged in EXTERMINATING people who claimed to be or were followers of Jewish Messianic rulers regardless of their names [Jesus or Simon].

Origen's Against Celsus

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After this, Celsus proceeding to speak of the Christians teaching and practising their favourite doctrines in secret, and saying that they do this to some purpose, seeing they escape the penalty of death which is imminent...

There were NO Jesus cult fables in the libraries of the Roman Empire in the 2nd century.

stephan huller · 09-10-2013, 09:21 AM

A partial list of sources for Celsus:

1. Gospel of Matthew
2. authentic Pauline Epistles
3. Pastoral Epistle
4. Justin
5. Book of Enoch
6. A Dispute between Jason and Papiscus (or some name like this)
7. Another work mention in Book 8 I forget
8. The work where the 'Jew of Celsus' attacks Christianity (Philo?)
9. Philo

Lucian of Samosata

1. Epistles of Ignatius

stephan huller · 09-10-2013, 09:36 AM

Apparently Apuleius the magician thought his works would end up in the public libraries:

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Apuleius refers only twice to libraries. He insists on the possibility of his books being read in one of the libraries of Carthage, which was endowed with public libraries by the Roman Senate soon after its destruction in 146 B. C. (Fl. 18. 8-9; Plin. Nat. 18. 22-3).50 On the other occasion and again in the context of his native North Africa Apuleius implies that his boorish opponents would be willing to seize copies of Aristotle's works from libraries and from students' hands (Apol. 41. 4; seep. 18).http://books.google.com/books?id=sZH...ext%22&f=false

Was Apuleius really that must more sophisticated than Tatian or Justin?

stephan huller · 09-10-2013, 09:42 AM

When Apuleius is charged with wooing his wife with magic he makes mention of magical works in the public libraries:

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Consider what confidence in my innocence and what contempt of you is implied by my conduct. If you can discover one trivial reason that might have led me to woo Pudentilla for the sake of some personal advantage, if you can prove that I have made the very slightest profit out of my marriage, I am ready to be any magician you please—the great Carmendas himself or Damigeron or Moses of whom you have heard, or Jannes or Apollobex or Dardanus himself or any sorcerer of note from the time of Zoroaster and Ostanes till now. See, Maximus, what a disturbance they have raised, merely because I have mentioned a few magicians by name. What am I to do with men so stupid and uncivilized? Shall I proceed to prove to you that I have come across these names and many more in the course of my study of distinguished authors in the public libraries? http://books.google.com/books?id=Yug...ors%22&f=false

I think the 'not up to public standards' argument is complete bunk. The library was like the Library of Congress. Everyone gets in. Even my shitty book is in the British Library, the Library of Congress, the Canadian National Library etc. I think was just a public record of things written. The government got to learn what was being said. Like the internet.

stephan huller · 09-10-2013, 09:43 AM

The specific 'crime' against the heretics was that they were keeping their writings secret. The Catholics were willingly depositing their books in the public libraries - like the magicians - because it (a) distinguished them from the 'bad Christians' and (b) it was an opportunity to have people learn about what they claimed was 'the true faith.'

aa5874 · 09-10-2013, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

A partial list of sources for Celsus:

1. Gospel of Matthew
2. authentic Pauline Epistles
3. Pastoral Epistle
4. Justin
5. Book of Enoch
6. A Dispute between Jason and Papiscus (or some name like this)
7. Another work mention in Book 8 I forget
8. The work where the 'Jew of Celsus' attacks Christianity (Philo?)
9. Philo

Lucian of Samosata

1. Epistles of Ignatius

Your list is fundamentally erroneous. You seem to have done no actual analysis of Origen's "Against Celsus" or cannot remember what is written.

1. Celsus did NOT mention the Gospel of Matthew.

2. Celsus did NOT mention the Entire Pauline Corpus.

3. Celsus did NOT mention the Pastoral Epistles.

4. Celsus did NOT mention Justin.

stephan huller · 09-10-2013, 09:45 AM

Apuleius's comments to me sound like there was just so much stuff - mostly garbage - that even regular library goers had no idea what was actually there.

stephan huller · 09-10-2013, 09:47 AM

Writings the epistles of Paul cited many times by Celsus, the apologetic works of Justin of which Eric Osborn writes:

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there is sufficient similarity between the ways in which Celsus and Justin use it (the inexpressible God that Plato gives in the Timaeus) to suggest the acquaintance of Celsus with what Justin had said. Particular arguments also suggest that Celsus knew Justin. Justin's account of the testimony of the prophets and its confirmation in history is parallel to Celsus' to Celsus' account of the writings of wise men which continue to be valid. Justin argues that Moses and the prophets precede the Greeks who are dependent on them. Celsus argues that Moses received his account of the creation from the wise men who were before him. Celsus claims that Christian penitence rests upon a misunderstanding of a statement in Plato. Justin had claimed that the pagans had borrowed from Moses the necessity for cleansing before entering the presence of God. Justin claimed to find in the second letter of (pseudo) Plato, an account of the Trinity. Celsus believes that Celsus believes that the same passage shows where the Christians get their idea of the kingdom of God. Justin shows that Christians must be on the side of law and order. Celsus echoes the words of Justin in his accusation of disloyalty. Celsus accuses Christians of specific disloyalty to the emperor, whose end was anticipated. Justin uses words which could be misunderstood in this way. Celsus answers Justin's criticism of the demi-gods of Greek mythology in a way which suggests acquaintance with what Justin said. Both Justin and Celsus consider the possible similarity of the sacraments and pagan mysteries. Celsus claims that there are similarities which Justin denies. Justin's account of the resurrection, in which he uses the metaphor of seed, is also criticised by Celsus. Finally, as noticed in an earlier chapter, Celsus' theme of true logos is also the theme of Justin.

stephan huller · 09-10-2013, 09:51 AM

I know this kind of 'scholarly writing' is over some people's reading comprehension but if we don't practice our English skills we will never improve.

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09-10-2013, 09:21 AM	#13
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	A partial list of sources for Celsus: 1. Gospel of Matthew 2. authentic Pauline Epistles 3. Pastoral Epistle 4. Justin 5. Book of Enoch 6. A Dispute between Jason and Papiscus (or some name like this) 7. Another work mention in Book 8 I forget 8. The work where the 'Jew of Celsus' attacks Christianity (Philo?) 9. Philo Lucian of Samosata 1. Epistles of Ignatius

09-10-2013, 09:43 AM	#16
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The specific 'crime' against the heretics was that they were keeping their writings secret. The Catholics were willingly depositing their books in the public libraries - like the magicians - because it (a) distinguished them from the 'bad Christians' and (b) it was an opportunity to have people learn about what they claimed was 'the true faith.'

09-10-2013, 09:45 AM	#18
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Apuleius's comments to me sound like there was just so much stuff - mostly garbage - that even regular library goers had no idea what was actually there.

09-10-2013, 09:51 AM	#20
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I know this kind of 'scholarly writing' is over some people's reading comprehension but if we don't practice our English skills we will never improve.

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