Freethought & Rationalism ArchiveThe archives are read only. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
04-30-2013, 12:38 PM | #51 | |||
Veteran Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Birmingham UK
Posts: 4,876
|
Quote:
Thank you for your interesting post. The external evidence is basically evidence for the type of text ('Caesarean?') used by Origen. This is an early and important text but often dubious when without the support of other textual families. The 'Western' text and the 'Neutral' text as well as the Byzantine all seem to have the phrase. Quote:
Andrew Criddle |
|||
05-03-2013, 09:12 AM | #52 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Nazareth
Posts: 2,357
|
JW:
The next Patristic witness is Sir Rap On: My Conclusion is Long, My Concordance is Strong(s). And I'm down to get the religious friction, on. Hell Yah! Serapion c. 350 Per Wasserman (the foremost defender of Long that the world has ever known) Serapion quotes Mark 1:1-2 twice without "the son of God" and has the same context as Origen, the Christian Bible is a continuation of the Jewish Bible. Wasserman confesses that Serapion is clearly Short but gives him a discount claiming he is copying Origen. Every commentator I'm aware of likewise agrees that Serapion is a witness for Short. Note - if you are waiting for an early Greek Patristic support for Long you are going to have to wait a while longer. So rationalize out your Appolocorn and get some margerinal witness to spray on top of it. Joseph ErrancyWiki |
05-04-2013, 09:12 PM | #53 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: California
Posts: 39
|
Quote:
The term "original" is a misnomer. Earlier than the Catholic would be more accurate. There are many places where I reject the Marcionite reading in favor of the UBS; sometimes because Tertullian, Epiphanius, or Adamantius are sloppy, sometimes the text in Marcion they have is bad - many examples of where Marcion's text are wrong. My reconstructions reflect that. FWIW, I think we have an incorrect transmission model for Paul. The collection built up and was found in heretical churches throughout the Mediterranean. From these sources it came into the orthodox, as various congregations were absorbed, and the text was already variant. The books were almost certainly not destroyed, but adjusted to Catholic form in a process we do not yet understand. The Orthodox adjustments have common themes, which are readily apparent in the Pastoral layers. And between the Marcionite and Orthordox, there are significant vocabulary differences. These differences are the clinchers for me that Marcion was earlier. The other clincher has to do with the church structures described by Marcion's Paul. It is a smaller organization without elders (word never occurs in Marcion), without permanent local administration, and unable to make decisions locally, having to defer to the "great leader." The rules are also simpler and without many exceptions. But the Catholic version describes a church with Elders, Administrators, Helpers, and they are asked to make decisions about who to include or toss out. Also the church described for by Marcion's Paul, where abstinence is pushed, any blemish is expelled, no mixing is accepted, no interfaith marriages, no deviants - all sound like a start up cult. But the Church described by the Catholic Paul worries about the image of the church with outsiders, and how to absorb initiates, and tackles issues like the children of interfaith unions, effeminate offspring and so on. There are also exceptions allowed for divorce missing in Marcion. Another is the theme of forgiving sinners and readmitting them to the congregation. All these speak of a much larger and older church organization, I would say easily a generation or more than the one described by Marcion's Paul. For those reasons I think Marcion's collection is earlier, possible collected before 145 AD (Galatians is clearly later than that, Corinthians 15:11 indicates it was written after Marcion broke with the proto-orthodox), and the Catholic must have been written at a later time with a friendly emperor, such as Commodus (Romans 13:1-7) but prior to Irenaeus (I place his writings close to 190 AD, not 177 AD as generally accepted) |
|
05-04-2013, 09:38 PM | #54 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: California
Posts: 39
|
Andrew,
א is Alexandrian, and one of the primary witnesses for Mark. When combined with the Caesarian it makes a powerful statement. The question still is, what would lead a scribe in two unrelated text types to remove the words? What would compel them? - Stuart |
05-05-2013, 06:14 AM | #55 | |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Birmingham UK
Posts: 4,876
|
Quote:
This is clearly a geographically Alexandrian reading but the first hand of א , when disagreeing both with its immediate corrector and with Vaticanus, is not a good representative of what Westcott & Hort called (question begging) the 'Neutral' text, the accurate Alexandrian tradition. Andrew Criddle |
|
05-05-2013, 06:22 AM | #56 | |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Birmingham UK
Posts: 4,876
|
Quote:
Andrew Criddle |
|
05-05-2013, 02:43 PM | #57 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: California
Posts: 39
|
Quote:
It is present in Luke 9:22 (AM 4.21.7 quia oporteret filium hominis multa pati, et reprobari a presbyteris et scribis et sacerdotibus, et interfici, et post tertium diem resurgere) and it never occurs in Paul outside the Pastorals. But the pastorals confirm the office in the proto-orthodox churches at a much later date than Marcionite Paulines which lack any reference. It is here associated with the organization of the Jewish Temple. But I will note, that it looks structurally more like the Catholic Church, as there is no position of scribe in the Jewish Synagogue, and the LXX only describes elders of the people or elders of this or that tribe or city, essentially secular role of government, not religious activity. that said both Luke 22:52 (Epiphanius makes clear at least 22:49-51 wasn't there and likely this extends into 22:52) and 22:66 the phrases similar to 9:22 are lacking in the triple tradition, not attested in Marcion. These are the other examples that follow wording of the creed in9:22. This doesn't prove much either way, so needs more research on my part. |
|
05-05-2013, 04:26 PM | #58 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: California
Posts: 39
|
Quote:
Corrector 1 is from the 4th century, "nearly contemporary" which is not necessarily immediately, it means less than 50 years. But lets say its corrected within a decade or so. What text was it compared to so that a change should be made? If you wish to claim it was omitted due to similar NS endings by a single progenitor that was common to Caesarean and Sinaiticus ancestors, then you are pushing this mistake back very likely into the 2nd century. If the mistake is independent, then you have to show a pattern of similar mistakes by Sinaiticus and similar "immediate" corrections. That you have not done. You need to be careful when throwing out leading words like "immediately" when speaking in archeological time frames, especially in a case here where you seem to imply the very same author recognized the mistake and corrected it right away - a fact far from established. |
|
05-06-2013, 04:35 AM | #59 | |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Birmingham UK
Posts: 4,876
|
Quote:
Some scholars think that corrector 1 was the proof-reader at the scriptorium where Sinaiticus was written, checking and correcting the product using a different manuscript. If so then the correction would genuinely have been almost immediate. (Not by the original scribe but by another scribe in the same workshop.) As an example of why I'm uneasy about reading found in Origen the first hand of Sinaiticus and the Caesarean. Consider the story of the demoniac in Luke 8. The original reading of the location of this account (8:26 and 8:37) is almost certainly Gerasa. The later manuscipts read Gadara. The first hand of Sinaiticus reads Gergesa, corected by corrector 1 (in verse 37 only) to Gadara. Gergesa is the Caesarean reading found also in Origen. It is not only a reading known to Origen but probably one introduced by Origen in an attempt to make sense of the confusing geography of this episode. This non-original specifically Origenist reading is witnessed to by both the Caesarean text and the first hand of Sinaiticus. Andrew Criddle |
|
05-08-2013, 09:22 AM | #60 | |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Nazareth
Posts: 2,357
|
Quote:
Hey, wait a minute. Who gave you perMission to post scholarship here? J. K. Elliott argues (well) that Mark 1:1-3 is inconsistent with the rest of "Mark": J.K. Elliott "Mark 1:1-3–A later addition to the Gospel?" NTS 46 (2000) 584-8 based on Internal evidence. He thinks that the Internal evidence supporting addition here is even better than the Internal evidence supporting addition of the LE (not sure about that claim). Note that if you exorcise 1:1-3: 1) John the Baptist is the setting and the action starts with Jesus coming from nowhere like a Higher Plain Drifter. Compare to Marcion where the action starts with Jesus falling out of the sky, so to speak. 2) "Mark" would have nice bookends, so to speak, of Jesus coming from the tomb of Nazareth at the start and leaving from the tomb of Jerusalem at the end. 3) There is no bridge here to The Jewish Bible. "Mark" has the fewest explicit claims of prophecy fulfillment and they are all ironic. A shorter put to Marcion's no connection to The Jewish Bible. On the other hand, the Marcion difference is which God, and not whether Jesus is the son of God. The Marcion conflict looks 2nd and 3rd century, and the earliest Patristic witness to the 1:1 dispute such as Origen and Serapion, argue that the Christian Bible is a continuation of The Jewish Bible and are blissfully unaware of Long here. So is all early Greek Patristic for 200 years. This suggests that Long did not even exist in Greek at that time. As I've shown in this Thread, the earliest Greek evidence for long is 4th century, post Marcion, when the major dispute is with Gnostics and the specific issue is when Jesus became son of God. And that is when we have our first extant Greek evidence of Long. Joseph ErrancyWiki |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|