Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 07-21-2013, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

JW:
Perhaps the most famous line of Paul regarding "putting on the clothes of Christ" is Galatians 3:27

Quote:

For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=G1746&t=KJV

Quote:

have put on g1746 ἐνδύω endyō

AV — put on 18, clothed with 2, clothed in 2, have on 2, clothe with 1, be endued 1, arrayed in 1, be clothed 1, vr put on 1

Note that the context of the offending word is clothing. Thus Paul as a possible source for "Mark" here is secure. Just how many times does Paul use this word and what are the contexts:

Rom 13:12 The night 3571 is far spent 4298 , 1161 the day 2250 is at hand 1448 : let us 659 0 therefore 3767 cast off 659 the works 2041 of darkness 4655, and 2532 let us put on1746 the armour 3696 of light 5457.

Rom 13:14 But 235 put ye on1746 the Lord 2962 Jesus 2424 Christ 5547, and 2532 make 4160 not 3361 provision 4307 for 1519 the flesh 4561, to [fulfil] the lusts 1939 [thereof].

1Cr 15:53 For 1063 this 5124 corruptible 5349 must 1163 put on1746 incorruption 861, and 2532 this 5124 mortal 2349 [must] put on1746 immortality 110.

1Cr 15:54 So 1161 when 3752 this 5124 corruptible 5349 shall have put on1746 incorruption 861, and 2532 this 5124 mortal 2349 shall have put on1746 immortality 110, then 5119 shall be brought to pass 1096 the saying 3056 that is written 1125 , Death 2288 is swallowed up 2666 in 1519 victory 3534.

2Cr 5:3 If 1489 so 2532 be that being clothed1746 we shall 2147 0 not 3756 be found 2147 naked 1131.

Eph 4:24 And 2532 that ye put on1746 the new 2537 man 444, which 3588 after 2596 God 2316 is created 2936 in 1722 righteousness 1343 and 2532 true 225 holiness 3742.

Eph 6:11 Put on1746 the whole armour 3833 of God 2316, that 4314 ye 5209 may be able 1410 to stand 2476 against 4314 the wiles 3180 of the devil 1228.

Eph 6:14 Stand 2476 therefore 3767, having 4024 0 your 5216 loins 3751 girt about 4024 with 1722 truth 225, and 2532 having on1746 the breastplate 2382 of righteousness 1343;

Col 3:10 And 2532 have put on1746 the new 3501 [man], which 3588 is renewed 341 in 1519 knowledge 1922 after 2596 the image of him 1504 that created 2936 him 846:

Col 3:12 Put on1746 therefore 3767, as 5613 the elect 1588 of God 2316, holy 40 and 2532 beloved 25 , bowels 4698 of mercies 3628, kindness 5544, humbleness of mind 5012, meekness 4236, longsuffering 3115;

1Th 5:8 But 1161 let 3525 0 us 2249, who are 5607 of the day 2250, be sober 3525 , putting on1746 the breastplate 2382 of faith 4102 and 2532 love 26; and 2532 for an helmet 4030, the hope 1680 of salvation 4991

Disclaimer = "have put on g1746 ἐνδύω endyō" is in "Mark's" inventory but this specific word is not used in the verses I previously identified. However, Paul's usage is a verb (an act) and "Mark's" usage is an adjective (generally).

So regarding criteria for parallels, the exact same word is not used. But the more important criterion of theme, here, Paul's figurative putting the attributes of his Christ on the successful disciple as if it were clothing, is one of his most important and repeated themes. And if "Mark" used this theme to help flesh out a narrative his narrative parallels very well with Paul's theme and he was extremely careful to limit the transfer of Christ's clothing theme to only the applicable parts of his narrative.

Thus we have excellent Theme parallels here and our conclusion, based on Literary Criticism, that Paul was a source for "Mark" here is secure.

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

Your logic fails.

All of a sudden "breastplate", and "armour" in the Pauline Corpus parallel "white linen" in gMark.

There is virtually no contextual link for mere linen as armour or protective gear in battle.

You have presented the very weakest and flawed argument that Paul is a Markan source.

JoeWallack · 07-24-2013, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JW

So regarding criteria for parallels, the exact same word is not used. But the more important criterion of theme, here, Paul's figurative putting the attributes of his Christ on the successful disciple as if it were clothing, is one of his most important and repeated themes. And if "Mark" used this theme to help flesh out a narrative his narrative parallels very well with Paul's theme and he was extremely careful to limit the transfer of Christ's clothing theme to only the applicable parts of his narrative.

Thus we have excellent Theme parallels here and our conclusion, based on Literary Criticism, that Paul was a source for "Mark" here is secure.

JW:
The successful Reader should have already noted that in the big picture "Mark" already parallels Paul as to primary theme, successful discipleship. As I've noted above "Mark's" dedication to Paul's proclamation of putting on the clothes of Christ is reMarkable. Are there other textual Markers of evidence? Does a Bar take a Peshitta to read in the woods?:

Mark 15

Quote:

43 there came Joseph of Arimathaea, a councillor of honorable estate, who also himself was looking for the kingdom of God; and he boldly went in unto Pilate, and asked for the body of Jesus.

44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.

45 And when he learned it of the centurion, he granted the corpse to Joseph.

46 And he bought a linen cloth, and taking him down, wound him in the linen cloth, and laid him in a tomb which had been hewn out of a rock; and he rolled a stone against the door of the tomb.

JW:
Regarding "Arimathaea" this location is otherwise unknown. As granny Wallack used to say, "If you are looking and looking for something and you just can't find it anywhere, it may mean it's lost." Dr. Carrier points out:

Rebuttal to Tomb Burial by Joseph of Arimathea [Kirby]

Quote:

Concerning the first, there is a plausible significance to the name Arimathea. Richard Carrier speculates, "Is the word a pun on 'best disciple,' ari[stos] mathe[tes]? Matheia means 'disciple town' in Greek; Ari- is a common prefix for superiority."[99] Since commentators have seen the burial by the outsider Joseph of Arimathea as a contrast to the failure of the disciples and intimates of Jesus, the coincidence that Arimathea can be read as "best disciple town" is staggering. Indeed, it is good evidence that Joseph of Arimathea is a fictional character and that the tomb burial story in the Gospel of Mark is also fictional.

JW:
A reMarkable textual Marker as evidence of contrivance that next to "Mark's" illustration of putting on the clothes of Christ is the successful disciple who is from somewhere that literally no one has ever heard of but figuratively means "best disciple (town)".

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

Grog · 07-24-2013, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Why is it more parsimonious to assume that there is a third source that we do not have that influenced both Mark and Paul?

Your source (published 1943) actually says:

If someone found parallels between Uncle Tom's Cabin and Tom Sawyer it could be argued that the later books was based upon the former (or a third source). However, it would be more parsimonious (IMHO) to conclude that any parallels were due to the both writers sharing the same common knowledge available at the time both books were written. Frederick C Grant claims similarities between gMark and the Pauline letters results from both writers sharing common knowledge. For those wishing to claim Pauline influence on the gMark he states. . . ,

Quote:

. . the hypothesis of Pauline influence upon the Gospel of Mark is a perfect mare’s nest of absurdities, of which exegesis of the New Testament and historical research into Christian origins had better be completely rid at once.
http://www.religion-online.org/showc...le=1940&C=1765

sharing what was "in the air" so to speak?

Adam · 07-24-2013, 04:09 PM

νεανίσκος as the word for "young man" is used twice in Mark as listed above starting with Post #12 by Joe Wallack, but it is also used twice at Mt. 19:20, 22 referring to the rich aristocrat who turned away sadly from Jesus. Many scholars think this is the same young man as in Mark 14:51, 52. He is often identified as John Mark (presenting himself unfavorably as Peter also does in Mark).

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07-24-2013, 04:09 PM	#24
Adam Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Dixon CA Posts: 1,150	νεανίσκος as the word for "young man" is used twice in Mark as listed above starting with Post #12 by Joe Wallack, but it is also used twice at Mt. 19:20, 22 referring to the rich aristocrat who turned away sadly from Jesus. Many scholars think this is the same young man as in Mark 14:51, 52. He is often identified as John Mark (presenting himself unfavorably as Peter also does in Mark).

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