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Veteran Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Nazareth
Posts: 2,357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy
I`m wondering what grounds we have to consider Josephus a source for the canonical gospels aside from quote above.
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JW:
See my related Award winning Thread:
"Mark's" Fourth Philosophy Source (After Imagination, Paul & Jewish Bible) = Josephus
Quote:
The purpose of this Thread will be to Inventory evidence that "Mark" used Josephus as a Source.
Inventory so far:
1) "Mark's" Jesus predicts the destruction of the Temple. So does Josephus' Jesus:
Correspondent: Neal Godfree
Link: http://members.dodo.com.au/~neilgodfrey/2jesus.htm
Smoking gun excerpt:
Quote:
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Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him.
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2) "Mark's" Jesus has a Mission to conquer Jerusalem and destroy the Temple. So does Josephus' Romans:
Correspondent: JoeWallack
Link: Jewrassic Pork. Evidence (More) Of Fiction In The Original Gospel
Smoking gun excerpt:
Quote:
Note the following reMarkable common words/ideas with the Historical Roman campaign:
1) Gerasa - An especially noteworthy town as it was built by Rome, was populated mainly by Gentiles, was temporarily controlled by the Jewish rebels and was an important conquest on the way to Jerusalem. Also, a major rebel leader, Simon, was from Gerasa.
2) Legion - This name for the Demon is especially telling as it is also the primary name for units of Roman soldiers.
3) Pigs - Using pigs is telling as this would be the primary animal Jews associated with Gentiles. Also, one of the conquering Legions had a Boar as it's standard.
4) Two thousand - This is close to a casualty figure from the Historical Gadara conquest (twenty-two hundred).
5) Drowned - In the Historical Gadara campaign the most horrific method of suffering and execution was drowning.
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3) "Mark's" Jesus advises not to cheat on your taxes. So does Josephus:
Correspondent: Gary Goldberg
Link: New Testament Parallels to the Works of Josephus
Smoking gun excerpt:
Quote:
Comment
It was seen above that an important part of the political background in Jesus' time was the Fourth Philosophy of Judas the Galilean. In the present passage is the clearest indication that Jesus was seen by some of his contemporaries as involved with that group. The originating tenet of the Fourth Philosophy was that one should not pay taxes to Rome, as this was interpreted as a turning away from God. When the people in the cited passage ask Jesus if it is "lawful to pay taxes to the Emperor, or not," they are referring to the Fourth Philosophy's reading of the Law of Moses. The questioners, even if they were hostile to them, can't be seen as setting a devious trap -- they were trying to pin Jesus' philosophy down by asking him his opinion on the central question of the times.
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4) "Mark's" Joseph apo Arimathias asks for and receives three crucified, one of which recovers. Josephus apo Matthias asks for and receives one of three crucified who recovers:
Correspondent: Paul Tobin
Link: The Burial
Smoking gun excerpt:
Quote:
The similarity in the names of the main protagonist is also considerable. In the same work, Josephus elucidated his distinguished ancestry. His grandfather, also named Joseph, begot Matthias his father in the tenth year of the reign of Archelaus (AD6). In the Greek text (the language Josephus wrote in) Joseph begot Matthias is rendered as Josepou Matthias. In Mark's gospel, Joseph of Arimathea is written in Greek as Joseph apo Arimathias, the similarity is curious. To quote Schonfield:
It is certainly curious that we have Josephus, himself a Josepou Matthias, begging the Roman commander for the bodies of three crucified friends, one of whom is brought back to life. [11]
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5) "Mark's" Jesus' brothers are James, Joses, Judas and Simon. Josephus' Judas the Galilean's sons were James and Simon, (crucified) and Joseph was the High Priest (removed).:
Correspondent: JoeWallack
Link: Mark "I Am IronyMan". How Much Ironic Contrast, Transfer and Reversal Did He kraM? - The Mark's Brothers
Smoking gun excerpt:
Quote:
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And besides this, the sons of Judas of Galilee were now slain; I mean of that Judas who caused the people to revolt, when Cyrenius came to take an account of the estates of the Jews, as we have showed in a foregoing book. The names of those sons were James and Simon], whom Alexander commanded to be crucified. But now Herod, king of Chalcis, removed Joseph, the son of Camydus, from the high priesthood, and made Ananias, the son of Nebedeu, his successor.
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6) "Mark's" Evangelist brother "Luke" clearly used Josephus as a source.
Correspondent: Richard Carrier
Link: Luke and Josephus
Smoking gun excerpt:
Quote:
# The same three rebel leaders: Judas the Galilean--even specifically connected with the census (Acts 5:37; JW 2.117-8, JA 18.1-8); Theudas (Acts 5:36; JA 20.97); and "The Egyptian" (Acts 21:38; JW 2.261-3, JA 20.171).
It seems quite a remarkable coincidence that Luke should even mention these men at all (no other Christian author does), and that he names only three rebel leaders, and that all three are the very same men named by Josephus--even though Josephus says there were numerous such men (JW 2.259-264; JA 20.160-9, 20.188) and he only singled out these three especially for particular reasons of his own. In fact, to use only the rather generic nick-name "The Egyptian," instead of, or without, an actual name of any kind (there were millions of Egyptians, and certainly thousands in Judaea at any given time), though explicable as an affectation of one author, seems a little strange when two authors repeat the same idiom.
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7) The External evidence indicates "Mark" is early second century and at this time Josephus would have been the recent and authoritative source for the history of the background to "Mark's" story.
Correspondent: Joe Wallack
Link: The Papias Smear, Changes in sell Structure. Evidence for an Original Second Century Gospel.
Smoking gun excerpt:
Quote:
7) Papias c. 125
Aware of written Sayings of Jesus by Peter/"Mark" and "Matthew"
No Evidence of "The Passion"
No Evidence of "The Simontic
Problem"
No Evidence of Infancy Narrative
No Evidence of Paul
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We may be creating an Intersection here for the creation of "Mark". Papias testifies that c. 125 he is not aware of any written Gospel Narrative and this is Confirmed by Eusebius who Reviews all available Church writings looking for the earliest evidence for the Canonical Gospels. Clement c. 110 shows the first evidence of an increasing Church hierarchy. Thus, the Motivation for "Mark" to write an anti-hierarchal Gospel exists starting c. 110. The earliest reference to use of a Canonical Gospel is Marcion c. 135. This suggests a dating range for "Mark" of 110 - 135.
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8) Josephus' Hyrcanus has his ear cut off to disqualify him from the High Priesthood. "Mark's" servant of the High Priest has his ear cut off trying to disqualify Jesus from the High Priesthood
Correspondent: Dave Hindley
Link: http://www.freeratio.org/showpost.ph...3&postcount=15
Smoking gun excerpt:
Quote:
Antiquities of the Jews 14:365-366 365 And thus was Antigonus brought back into Judea by the king of the Parthians [and reinstalled in his office], and received [from the Parthians] Hyrcanus and Phasaelus for his prisoners ... 366 but being afraid that Hyrcanus, who was [still at that point] under the guard of the Parthians, might have his kingdom restored to him by the multitude [once the Parthians left], he cut off his [i.e., Hyrcanus'] ears, and thereby took care that the high priesthood should never come to him any more, because he was maimed, while the law required that this dignity should belong to none but such as had all their members entire.
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Quote:
Mark 14:47 But a certain one of them that stood by drew his sword, and smote the servant of the high priest, and struck off his ear.
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9) Josephus says the cause of the destruction of Jerusalem was the High Priest and Jesus. "Mark" says the cause of the destruction of Jerusalem was the High Priest and Jesus:
Correspondent: Joe Wallack
Smoking gun excerpt:
Quote:
http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/t...phus/war4.html
2. But the rage of the Idumeans was not satiated by these slaughters; but they now betook themselves to the city, and plundered every house, and slew every one they met; and for the other multitude, they esteemed it needless to go on with killing them, but they sought for the high priests, and the generality went with the greatest zeal against them; and as soon as they caught them they slew them, and then standing upon their dead bodies, in way of jest, upbraided Ananus with his kindness to the people, and Jesus with his speech made to them from the wall. Nay, they proceeded to that degree of impiety, as to cast away their dead bodies without burial, although the Jews used to take so much care of the burial of men, that they took down those that were condemned and crucified, and buried them before the going down of the sun. I should not mistake if I said that the death of Ananus was the beginning of the destruction of the city, and that from this very day may be dated the overthrow of her wall, and the ruin of her affairs, whereon they saw their high priest, and the procurer of their preservation, slain in the midst of their city. He was on other accounts also a venerable, and a very just man; and besides the grandeur of that nobility, and dignity, and honor of which he was possessed, he had been a lover of a kind of parity, even with regard to the meanest of the people; he was a prodigious lover of liberty, and an admirer of a democracy in government; and did ever prefer the public welfare before his own advantage, and preferred peace above all things; for he was thoroughly sensible that the Romans were not to be conquered. He also foresaw that of necessity a war would follow, and that unless the Jews made up matters with them very dexterously, they would be destroyed; to say all in a word, if Ananus had survived, they had certainly compounded matters; for he was a shrewd man in speaking and persuading the people, and had already gotten the mastery of those that opposed his designs, or were for the war. And the Jews had then put abundance of delays in the way of the Romans, if they had had such a general as he was. Jesus was also joined with him; and although he was inferior to him upon the comparison, he was superior to the rest; and I cannot but think that it was because God had doomed this city to destruction, as a polluted city, and was resolved to purge his sanctuary by fire, that he cut off these their great defenders and well-wishers, while those that a little before had worn the sacred garments, and had presided over the public worship; and had been esteemed venerable by those that dwelt on the whole habitable earth when they came into our city, were cast out naked, and seen to be the food of dogs and wild beasts. And I cannot but imagine that virtue itself groaned at these men's case, and lamented that she was here so terribly conquered by wickedness. And this at last was the end of Ananus and Jesus.
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As my ancestor Caiphas used to say, "what more evidence do we need" (that "Mark" used Josephus). Thus we have it on good authority that Josephus was a major source for "Mark" and that "Mark" is securely dated to 2nd century.
Josephus
HISTORIAN, n.
A broad-gauge gossip.
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ErrancyWiki
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09-06-2013, 02:54 AM
