Goliath

CJD,

Why do I doubt this?

But you indeed do presume to know things about me! You presumed that I was an atheist all of my life, when this was not the case!

You have surmised that I am an atheist, yes. You have also incorrectly surmised that I believe that no gods exist. Are you dense, or are you trying to obfuscate the difference between weak and strong atheism?

Actually, now that I think about it, I have compared my life with how the bible says that I should live it, and I've found my way of living to be much better (no cursing fig trees, no self-mutilation, no hating my family, etc, etc, etc...although this should probably be saved for another thread).

Yes you have! You have presumed that I am a strong atheist, when this is in fact false!

I have followed and trashed your argument several times in this thread.

One's actions can say things about one's beliefs, but they do not always speak clearly. For example, a protestant and a catholic can have very similar lifestyles, but believe very different things. Their actions do indeed indicate that they are theists, but their actions alone need not determine what kind of theist they are.

Your argument is moot, since I do not believe that a god exists.

This is in no way, shape, or form a non-issue! You're arguing that the fact that I do not go to church, pray, etc implies that I hold a belief with regards to the existence of your god. You are trying to argue that my actions determine my beliefs, when I have shown again and again that this is not the case!

In that case, I thank you for the victory.

YES YOU ARE! You are trying to argue that my actions as an atheist imply that I believe that your god does not exist! You are trying to argue that all atheists hold a belief, and thusly that atheism is a belief!

Sincerely,

Goliath

CJD

1. I never assumed you were an atheist your entire life. In fact, I pretty much assumed what I often do (unless otherwise indicated), that you were once a fundamentalist and now you are an atheist. Now, where did I assume you have been an atheist your entire life?

2. I have not incorrectly surmised that you disbelieve in my God. I have simply shown (with your help) that your life portrays one who is not yet convinced that a God exists. The differences between atheists on this point is moot, as are the differences between Protestants and Catholics. The point is, the lives in question depict a belief (or absence of belief) in a Supreme Being. I am not presuming anything more detailed than that.

3. All I have attempted to show you was that your criterion for surmising one's beliefs are inadequate. You wrote, ". . . we know about each other's beliefs by either reading minds (which, as far as I know, no one is capable of) or by.......ready for this? this might be a bit new to you....asking them, instead of presuming to know what their beliefs are."

I have shown you that I did not presume to know what your beliefs were, but by your own admittance, you say you live like an atheist. And you should. After all, you are one. Herein lies the connection between actions and beliefs. Actions do not determine beliefs, but in this case (especially), they are part and parcel of said beliefs. Was your aforementioned criterion for surmising another's beliefs shown to be inadequate or not?

No matter how much you yell (which, by the way, is quite unbecoming for a supposed graduate student), I must maintain that I am not arguing that your atheism is a "belief;" rather, I am arguing that your actions with relation to God clearly speak of the commitment that you have regarding your not yet being convinced that a God exists.

CJD

Goliath

CJD,

You are a liar.

Another lie!

Then why did you state (see quote above) that my life supposedly portrays one who holds a belief regarding the existence of the xian god?

And these two methods are the only methods that I know of that determine beliefs. Actions do not determine beliefs. They can help sort out some beliefs from others, but given a person who performs collection of actions, that collection need not determine what said person's beliefs are.

You lie yet again (See above).

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "living like an atheist." Two different atheists may lead completely different lives.

No.

Actually, I've only yelled at you twice, and that was out of frustration. For that, I apologize. However, letters that are in bold or whose size are increased do not represent yelling, merely a lot of emphasis. When I yell, I type in all caps.

Oh, and if you doubt that I'm a graduate student, I welcome you to call the NDSU Department of Mathematics at 701-231-8171 and ask if they have a graduate student named Jack Maney.


Sincerely,

Goliath

CJD

1. "observing your life" did not mean your "entire" life. But I forgive you for uncautiously calling me a liar.

2. This: "your life portrays one who is not yet convinced that a God exists." was meant to ammend some of the word choices in this: "says quite clearly that you absolutely hold a belief regarding the existence of God." In other words, it should have read, " . . . absolutely not yet convinced that a God exists." Honestly, I was not concerned with the so-called differences between soft and hard atheists (or whatever). I hope you see that lying is malicious and that there was no malicious intent here.

3. Asking someone his/her beliefs does not determine his/her beliefs: 1) they could be lying. 2) their epistemic faculties might not be functioning properly. Face it, the old axiom is true: "Actions speak louder than words." Your proposed criterion is obviously inadequate.

4. "living like an atheist" simply means in this context one who does not pray, does not attend church; in short, one who does not attempt to follow Christ. Two different atheists probably do lead totally different lives, but I'll bet neither one them prays, goes to church, etc. I mean, why would they? They're atheists. They either disbelieve that a God exists, or are not yet convinced that a God exists (does my distinction make you happy?).

5. I accept your apology, and I don't doubt you're a graduate student. Given the nature of Internet discourse, it is difficult to "see" who you are talking to. Suffice to say that I am not a fellow student, my faith is no hobby, and my knowledge of it brings me a salary (just as I assume your knowledge of math will one day do for you).

Regards,

CJD

Debbie T

I am not an atheist. I do not go to church, I do not pray and I don't test my actions against the bible, etc. So what am I?

Mageth

4. "living like an atheist" simply means in this context one who does not pray, does not attend church; in short, one who does not attempt to follow Christ.

Not praying and not attending church are not requirements for being an atheist, and aren't particularly good "markers" of "living like an atheist". Praying and attending church are not particularly good markers for determining if someone is attempting to follow Christ, in any case. Many who pray and attend Christian churches aren't doing much else to "follow Christ", either. I'm sure the pews are full of lukewarm followers - that's what I've heard many preachers say.

Many in other religions pray and attend "church" of one sort or other, but are not attempting to follow Christ. Some Buddhists are atheists and still practice a sort of prayer, and may even attend a type of "church" (loosely defined as going to a central "holy" location to participate in ritual with other "believers."). Then there's Islam and other world religions. Some Wiccans and Satanists "pray" and "attend church" in the same sense.

Also, not attending church has nothing to do with being an atheist. I'm sure there are atheists around here who regularly attend church. I did for a while when I first became an atheist, and still do occasionally. And there's always the Untiarian Universalist Church to consider.

Two different atheists probably do lead totally different lives, but I'll bet neither one them prays, goes to church, etc. I mean, why would they? They're atheists.

Well, many atheists might go to church, for example, to please their spouses, to hear the music, for the sense of community, or if Politicians to impress their constituents, or just because they enjoy it, or for a variety of other reasons.

"Living like an atheist" means, pure and simple, lacking belief in god. When I screw up, I don't think there's a god watching me. When I think, I don't think there's a god listening in. When I talk, I don't think there's a god listening. When good things happen to me, I don't think god's responsible. When bad things happen, I don't think there's a god to help. If anything's gonna get done, it's up to me to do it.

CJD

Debbie T wrote, "I am not an atheist. I do not go to church, I do not pray and I don't test my actions against the bible, etc. So what am I?"

Sounds like a game we used to play (what's red and green and has spots all over?).

Basically, Debbie T, 1) You claim not to be an atheist; 2) Your everyday actions, by your own admittance, are not compatible with orthodox Christianity; 3) For all intents and purposes, you're a practical atheist.

Sure, there are other alternatives regarding your actual idiosyncratic beliefs. For example, you might be a deist, but that is not Christianity. You might claim Christianity, but yet you do not pray, regard Scripture as having any practical value, etc. We can assume that by your actions you are not one (at least as historically understood). You might even claim a kind of theism, it makes no difference really, for your actions are practically atheistic. Do you follow?

Mageth, I have defined the context within which I wrote. What you offered really adds nothing to the conversation, and is common knowledge. If your point was that such-and-so are not good markers of an atheist, well, that depends entirely on the situation that that criterion is being applied to. In other words, given my discussion with Goliath, it is a good marker. I had no intent of speaking some universal standard into the air. They are good markers insofar as they apply to the situation at hand.

You wrote, "Living like an atheist" means, pure and simple, lacking belief in god. When I screw up, I don't think there's a god watching me. When I think, I don't think there's a god listening in. When I talk, I don't think there's a god listening. When good things happen to me, I don't think god's responsible. When bad things happen, I don't think there's a god to help. If anything's gonna get done, it's up to me to do it."

* Surely you see how this just proves my point. God does not even factor in to the thoughts of an atheist. That is, after all, what an atheist is by definition. You live like an atheist. I live like a Christian. It's really that simple. Our actions speak accordingly.

CJD

Goliath

CJD,

Then you should've specified that you didn't mean my entire life.

I have the sneaking hunch that you're now not only a liar, but a weaseling liar. Please prove me wrong.

I'll be charitable and (for now) suppose that you really didn't mean to imply that I had a belief regarding the existence of the xian god.

Although it's true that either 1 or 2 can happen, I should've specified that the answer has to be honest. Of course, one can perform actions that don't conform to one's beliefs, either, so this, once again, destroys your argument.

This definition is inadequate. Non-xian theists do not, in general, live their lives like atheists.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Bumble Bee Tuna

I'm sorry, but this implicit admission that stupidly only attributing good things to God is an integral part of Christian thought just made me die with laughter.

-B

Soul Invictus

Whoa Goliath! My vision isn't bad, some I'm wondering what the enlarged text was for. Your wording is appearing a bit troublesome, and I'm thinking you don't like when I attempt to turn your negative self statements into positives. I may somehow be misrepresenting your stance, however you have yet to elaborate on what is fallacious. You simply retype your stance again, which is doing nothing to clarify your muddled choice of words, like using double negatives...I guess I better go get my logic and english book and reread those areas.

Let me start over from your initial position...

You said you do not believe that ANY gods exists. I interpret this that you have assumed a position as to what would define god for you, and judging by a lack of evidence ( or lack of the criteria to meet your definition of god) and have concluded that not ANY gods exist.

Your so-called counterexample was that you do not believe that all gods do not exist. This means you do not rule out the existence of a god presence in its entirety. This allows for the existence of A god. How do you say this second statement doesn't contradict the first? How can your first stance rule out the existence of god or gods, and the second claim permit for the possibility for one?

Oh, and about that definition I gave, it would have sufficed for the argument I was making

a·the·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (th-zm)
n.

Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods. [emphasis on existence]
The doctrine that there is no God or gods. [emphasis on no]


Thoroughly confused...

:banghead: