Freethought & Rationalism Archive

josephpalazzo · 08-10-2005, 06:05 AM

Is it morally wrong for a group of people to have self-determination?

This is not a moral question but one of power. Any group that has the power to declare self-determination can/will do it.

King Rat · 08-10-2005, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Is it morally wrong for a group of people to have self-determination... Even if they're white?

Isn't that called a trailer park?

thumper · 08-10-2005, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by josephpalazzo

Is it morally wrong for a group of people to have self-determination?

This is not a moral question but one of power. Any group that has the power to declare self-determination can/will do it.

I try to pose it as a moral question because some people here believe that whites don't have that right, and that they must be all inclusive because it would take away opportunity/standard of living from non-white immigrants.

thumper · 08-10-2005, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Rat

Isn't that called a trailer park?

Or the various european countries :huh:

thumper · 08-10-2005, 08:45 AM

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Originally Posted by laughing dog

Let's take an example. Suppose all of the white supremacists banded to together in some part of a state, say Idaho. And to simplify matters, everyone who disagreed or didn't like them left the area.
I agree that if ALL of the white supremacists lived and stayed there, it would be easy to keep tabs on them. And, as long as they did not export any of their bs or expand the numbers, the effect would be like bottling them.
But that is pure fantasy. They would try to export their bs, they would expand their numbers.
I know I wouldn't want to live anywhere near them. I'm sure anyone who was a nonwhite wouldn't want to live anywhere near them.

Isn't this the perfect solution?

People who want nothing to do with eachother live apart?

King Rat · 08-10-2005, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thumper

Or the various european countries :huh:

An entire European country, or an insignificant racist gang from that country? IME Neo-Nazi's in the US chill out after they move out of their parent's basement, get a job and a girlfriend. I'd imagine it's not much different in Europe.

RED DAVE · 08-10-2005, 08:59 AM

From thumper:

Quote:

I try to pose it as a moral question because some people here believe that whites don't have that right, and that they must be all inclusive because it would take away opportunity/standard of living from non-white immigrants.

What you are doing, when you pose this question as a moral one or as an idea is to abstract it from history, from its real context and effects.

It is not a matter of abstract rights. It is a matter of what would be the effect in the United States if White nationalists, or any other group, had the power to legally segregate.

The answer is: look at the 1950s and before. We had a level of segregation in this country that you, as a young person, cannot imagine. This country is far from a racial paradise now, and with the rise of the suburbs and gated communities, it is becoming more segregated, but during a time before you were born the active, public practice of racism in employment, housing and public accomodations was legal and frequently open.

It took the heroic acts of million of people to get rid of racism as a national policy and drive it semi-underground. Now you, because of a fantasy, a mortal idea about White nationalists and self-determination, who are just soft nazis, want to reinstate this racism as a matter of "rights."

Study some history and grow up some.

RED DAVE

Alethias · 08-10-2005, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thumper

Isn't this the perfect solution?

People who want nothing to do with eachother live apart?

I wouldn't mind if all the white supremacists were to go live in a trailer park somewhere together and live in harmony with the rest of the world, but life isn't that easy.

Since it's an ideology that is based on hatred for someone that looks different, the hatred would manifest in atrocities towards people that aren't part of the 'elect', chosen group. Happened in Rwanda, Happened in Yugoslavia, in fact this type of thing has happened repeatedly throughout human history.

thumper · 08-10-2005, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED DAVE

From thumper:
What you are doing, when you pose this question as a moral one or as an idea is to abstract it from history, from its real context and effects.

It is not a matter of abstract rights. It is a matter of what would be the effect in the United States if White nationalists, or any other group, had the power to legally segregate.

The answer is: look at the 1950s and before. We had a level of segregation in this country that you, as a young person, cannot imagine. This country is far from a racial paradise now, and with the rise of the suburbs and gated communities, it is becoming more segregated, but during a time before you were born the active, public practice of racism in employment, housing and public accomodations was legal and frequently open.

It took the heroic acts of million of people to get rid of racism as a national policy and drive it semi-underground. Now you, because of a fantasy, a mortal idea about White nationalists and self-determination, who are just soft nazis, want to reinstate this racism as a matter of "rights."

Study some history and grow up some.

RED DAVE

Is this to say that [edit] depend on whites?

thumper · 08-10-2005, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordOfTruth

I wouldn't mind if all the white supremacists were to go live in a trailer park somewhere together and live in harmony with the rest of the world, but life isn't that easy.

Since it's an ideology that is based on hatred for someone that looks different, the hatred would manifest in atrocities towards people that aren't part of the 'elect', chosen group. Happened in Rwanda, Happened in Yugoslavia, in fact this type of thing has happened repeatedly throughout human history.

why is it considered an act of hatred, for a group of people to seek self-determination?

Do you feel this way about "Tibetan supremacists" as well?

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08-10-2005, 06:05 AM	#41
josephpalazzo Banned Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Laval, Quebec Posts: 2,951	Is it morally wrong for a group of people to have self-determination? This is not a moral question but one of power. Any group that has the power to declare self-determination can/will do it.

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