scombrid

Let's see. Over here in the US we have literalists that are trying to insert Creationism into science curricula. If they want me to believe part of the OT literally, then they must want me to believe all of it literally. I think that it's perfectly valid to ask that they answer for all of the nonsense contained therein.

There is no double standard here. If someone is willing to challenge me with their dogma then they need to be prepared to defend it, whether they be Protestant, Catholic, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, etc... Christians are the most vocal and influential in my corner of the world to they are the most likely to annoy me and draw fire, especially the reconstructionists such as D. Kennedy and John Hagee.

Evangelion

B. H. Manners -

Uncanny!

galiel

Why do you persist in erecting them, Evangelicon?
I have absolutely no problem presenting these questions to a Rabbi. What difference does it make? Both Judaism and Christianity start from the same irrational premise and use the OT as an historical document.

You just seem to want to reroute the discussion because you are uncomfortable trying to defend yet another illustration that the bible, rather than being the word of some omniscient "god", is cleary a product of its time, the prevailing culture and its contemporary state of knowledge about the way the world works.

B. H. Manners

DITTO!

scombrid

Correct. That’s all it was. However, that’s not what the OT says that people back then believed it was. They believed that it was god levying judgement on a woman for her sin.

'the LORD make you an execration and an oath among your people, when the LORD makes your thigh fall away and your body swell; may the water that brings the curse pass into your bowels and make your body swell and your thigh fall away.'

Evangelion

brighid -

*snip*

But not every Christian does this anyway. (At least, not here in Australia.) Can't you stop generalising for just a moment?

And seeing that this entire thread was started by an atheist, the old "I'm answering a pushy Christian" defence just doesn't hold water.

Thus:

Clearly, the purpose of this thread was anti-Christian to begin with. It was not begun in a genuine spirit of enquiry; it was not begun in answer to a pushy Christian; it was just another excuse to launch a fresh wave of anti-Christian polemic.

*snip*

I've already agreed with this. (See my initial response to B H.)

Thus:

You won't get far by complaining that OT Judaism doesn't reflect 21st Century mores.

*snip*

Very true. But by the same token, how do you expect the Christians to take you seriously when (after complaining about all their faults) you merely respond with the same attitude, in the form of atheist polemic?

That's hardly the way to convince someone that yours is the rational alternative.

galiel

You still haven't answered the question. Crying victim will win you points with the other iitheists, but not with us.

Evangelion

galiel -

I don't. I'm just waiting to see some objectivity.

Apparently, this is the wrong place to find it.

But when was the last time you did? You see, once again, we find that your real interest in this passage goes no further than "Let's find some anti-Christian ammunition."

Plenty.

The standard atheist response here, has been "We have the right to mock Christians because they bug us with their evangelising." But I don't see how indulging in childish "Let's do what they did to us" games, solves anything. I expected a more mature response from the atheists; something along the lines of an objective, rational discussion.

All I've seen so far is that atheists can hurl insults just as well as the next Fundy. (Well hey, I knew that already.)

Thanks for your opinion.

I've already agreed with this, as I've already said at least twice (if not three times.)

No, I'm simply trying to pin down the atheist agenda. Apparently, it consists of nothing more noble than "Let's mock the Christians."

Which is what I'd predicted.

No, I'm not "uncomfortable" about trying to defend it at all. I've already made this clear.

I am simply asking why atheists think it's OK to use Jewish Scriptures as a tool for ridiculing Christians - and I won't accept "They stuck something in my letterbox last week" as a viable excuse.

Is it too much to ask for a mature response?

Apparently so.

jess

Evangelion:

Why did you skip my point?

The Christians are very proud of their heritage from Judaism (although I personally do not see how the religions are compatable) and they rely on the OT to prove their religion.

They have accepted it as the word of god, as such, they need to defend it.

If they denied the OT, and we were expecting defense, then your arguement would be valid. But they accept it.

In addition, this is a tangent on a very interesting thread. I will start a new topic with this post. I do not want to see this thread weighed down with this tangent.

If posters don't agree, they simply won't follow me. And the mods can close it. (sorry for the extra work, though.)

brighid

But Christianity cannot exist without the Old Testaments and its alleged prophecies. What is Christianity without Judaic prophecy, the Old Testament and the Judaic GOD?

You call us BIGOTED because we challenge the Christian to reconcile the genocidal, misogynistic, inhumane actions of the GOD that inseminated a virgin in order to bring forth HIS SON? The same Savior allegedly who came to share the word of this VERY SAME God? Remember Jesus is the SON of God and the Messiah. HELLO!!! You know the God that created the Universe, Adam and Eve who imparted us with Original Sin, which made the birth of a Savior necessary in the 1st place, how about the myth of Noah and the Ark … isn’t that still part of the Christian mythology and used as an explanation for why the world was whiped out? What part of the Bible do we find that piece of Christian mythology in? What part of the Bible do we find the Ten Commandments in? Sodom and Gomorrah? What part of the Bible do find out God, the FATHER? Or that the alleged Savior is to be born of a virgin? ALL of your Christian mythology is completely and utterly dependent upon Judaism and the OT, without it Christianity would be nothing more then another pagan religious movement.

So we challenge you, the Christian and ALL others that come here to reconcile YOUR claim that YOUR Gods Father (or in most cases the inseperable essence of Jesus as the OT God) is perfect in love, mercy, and compassion with his inspired stories, commandments and the knowledge He imparted onto the world through the OT – WITHOUT which you wouldn’t even KNOW about the Jewish MESSIAH, now transformed into the exclusive Christian God. You simply cannot wash your hands of the entanglements of the OT God and how that utterly conflicts with your own theological claims.

Brighid