fatherphil

then not even a principle could be black or white. if i were to relegate mathematics to a matter of opinion, redifining terms as i needed to facilitate this it would seem pretty ridiculous. surely there must be at least one social priciple which all could see as absolute as a simple mathematical equation.

Majestyk

No. Principles, by their definition, are personal codes of conduct. They do not carry the burden of morality. They carry the burden of consistency.

Majestyk

That would depend on the scope of the principle. Otherwise they are black & white. Failure to ahere to them is matter of integrity.

Abel Stable

Perhaps, but for the purposes of this thread: "recreational drug use is always immoral" does not fit the bill.

Also, for the sake of clarification: Principles are personal, like Majestyk said, but I assumed you're proposing something more universal that applies to all.

ExTheist

Why are Xians so upset at the idea of people having pleasure? Is it your jebus on a stick symbol? Do you think that there is value in suffering? We will continue to use substances for our pleasure or do what we wish with other consenting adults and do what ever we want for pleasure and enjoyment. I think a celibate ascetic life style is unnatural, but I would never tell somebody who chooses that lifestyle that they should change. I like what Oscar Wilde had to say about this: "Self denial is the shining sore one the leprous body of Christianity"

fatherphil

give me one that is black & white & universal?

oh and extheist, my approach to this issue is not from a religious standpoint. so why do you bring religion into it?

Farren

But barring Utopia, there's always gonna be somewhere where there's a jew living in the basement hiding from the nazi's, or a battered wife hiding in the bathroom while her raging maniac of a husband demands to know where she is at the front door.

In other words there'll always be lies with positive results. And your absolute, legalistic morality will always be failing in a million small ways all over the world at any moment

Or are you honestly suggesting that we can change all of human nature, for the rest of time? This seems to be the requirement for your argument to have utitlity.

fatherphil

how does it fail?

Majestyk

How did a personal code of conduct become, universal? And how does it bear relevance, here.

Are we still focused on your assertion that to allow one's self to become less than fully capable, as a result of self indulgence, immoral? If, so then, I already agreed with you on that point. We can argue as to the level of immorality, as it compares to other activities if, you wish.

Let me put forth an anology here:

We have an object here that people have declared weighs 500 kilos and has been outlawwed because it exceeds the acceptable weight limit.

Other people have argued that it only weighs 10 kilos and the outlaw effect is adding an additional 700 kilos to the weight we are bearing.

Then you ask, "How much does this thing weigh?"

People respond with "About 10 kilos."

You then add a barely relevant material and claim it to weigh 50 kilos.

So what? It is still not anywhere near the 700 kilos that we are suffering from the outlaw effect. Nor is it any different from the 50 kilos we carry around from each of a multitude of other accepted objects.

Abel Stable

Where are you reading religion into this? What Majestyk is saying (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that people have their own core principles. I have mine, and I try to adhear to them. It is a black & white distinction- I'd rather keep myself on one side of a line & not the other. Breaking them goes against a personal code. Principles are subject to change by consistency of behavior (or lack thereof). They may be influenced by religion, but that certainly isn't always the case. It depends on the person, and where they live, and plenty of other things.