Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Detached9 · 03-03-2002, 08:24 AM

Ah yes, I forgot one of the attributes was outside of time. What is "outside of time", what does that mean? Can a being that doesn't exist in the dimension of time interact with beings that do exist in time?

If God is "[1] Omniscient" and "[2] Omnipotent", due to evil on Earth (Self declared in God's own book), He cannot be "[4] Omnibenevolent"

Standard Problem of Evil argument. This usually is countered with God gave humans free will. It is better to be able to choose good over bad then to not be able to have the choice at all (or so the argument goes).

03-03-2002, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Detached9:
Point out as many paradoxes in this definition of God as possible.

[1] Omniscient

Yes because science extrapolates from omniscience. This means that the answer must exist in our imagination before the question can be conceived to exist.

[2] Omnipotent

Yes because we extrapolate power from omnipotence which means that power must exist before we can profit from it. 

[3] Ineffable 

God is not ineffable or we would not have knowledge of God to recognize God as either effable or inefable.

[4] Omnibenevolent

Without agape neiter love nor hate could be conceive to exist because combined they are opposite to omnibenevolence.

[5] Omnipresent

Without omnipresence you or I could no longer be.
[6] Perfect

Perfect means in charge of destiny

[7] Invisible (immaterial, supernatural)

Immaterial is not equal to supernatural. God as immaterial makes reference to the essence of existence after which existence is formed. Supernatural makes reference to the natural from a point of ignorance. That is, the supernatural only exists from oblivion.

[8] Creator of the universe 

The Universe does not exist and so God could not have created it.

[9] Outside of time

Time does not exist and so God has nothing to do with the creation of time as such. 

[10] Desires communion with humans

God has no interest in communion with humans, never did and never will. God communes with Lord God and Mary theotokos, either as Holy or Happy Trinity.

[11] Has free will

Yes, only God has free will and as humans we must just pretend we do. 

[ March 03, 2002: Message edited by: Detached9 ]

You may have noticed that some of your definitions are wrong. For example, 1 is wrong, 2 is wrong, 3 is wrong, 4 is wrong, 5 is wrong, 6 is wrong, 7 is wrong, 8 is wrong, 9 is wrong, 10 is wrong and 11 is right.

Detached9 · 03-03-2002, 02:45 PM

Yes because science extrapolates from omniscience. This means that the answer must exist in our imagination before the question can be conceived to exist.

Relevance? Actually almost all of your "arguments" aren't relevant.

Perfect means without flaw.

The universe doesn't exist? Time doesn't exist? Where are you getting these?

03-03-2002, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Detached9:
[b]
Perfect means without flaw.

The universe doesn't exist? Time doesn't exist? Where are you getting these?

Sorry, to be "in charge of destiny" is beyond judgement and flaws only exist in a relative world.

Show me the universe and show me time.

[ March 03, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]

jordan_tar · 03-03-2002, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Detached9:

[6] Perfect
[10] Desires communion with humans

Here's one I don't see too often - why would a perfect being desire anything?

Detached9 · 03-03-2002, 05:04 PM

Here's one I don't see too often - why would a perfect being desire anything?

Yes, I've seen this one argued often. A perfect being desires to the create the world. Why desire anything if you are perfect? Desire implies that something is missing that wants to be filled.

Detached9 · 03-03-2002, 05:06 PM

Show me the universe and show me time.

Depends on our definition of universe and time. Time could be merely the passing of events. The universe could be "all matter and energy, including the earth, the galaxies, and the contents of intergalactic space, regarded as a whole" (Dictionary.com).

03-03-2002, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Detached9:
Here's one I don't see too often - why would a perfect being desire anything?

Yes, I've seen this one argued often. A perfect being desires to the create the world. Why desire anything if you are perfect? Desire implies that something is missing that wants to be filled.

I fully agree with you that christians are wrong about nearly everything they believe. The believe that God desires to commune with humans is wrong, as I wrote before, and God did not create the world either and never had any part of it. God created the heavens and the earth as opposites in which he placed man prior to the fall of man etc.

03-03-2002, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Detached9:
Show me the universe and show me time.

Depends on our definition of universe and time. Time could be merely the passing of events. The universe could be "all matter and energy, including the earth, the galaxies, and the contents of intergalactic space, regarded as a whole" (Dictionary.com).

True, but since the concept God is myth it must be argued from that perspective. I actually do not believe that the bible states that God created the universe or time. The six days of creation are phases of spiritual maturity that lead towards the seventh day which is the day on which evening did not follow the day.

Draygomb · 03-04-2002, 05:04 AM

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03-03-2002, 08:24 AM	#11
Detached9 Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 341	Ah yes, I forgot one of the attributes was outside of time. What is "outside of time", what does that mean? Can a being that doesn't exist in the dimension of time interact with beings that do exist in time? If God is "[1] Omniscient" and "[2] Omnipotent", due to evil on Earth (Self declared in God's own book), He cannot be "[4] Omnibenevolent" Standard Problem of Evil argument. This usually is countered with God gave humans free will. It is better to be able to choose good over bad then to not be able to have the choice at all (or so the argument goes).

03-03-2002, 02:45 PM	#13
Detached9 Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 341	Yes because science extrapolates from omniscience. This means that the answer must exist in our imagination before the question can be conceived to exist. Relevance? Actually almost all of your "arguments" aren't relevant. Perfect means without flaw. The universe doesn't exist? Time doesn't exist? Where are you getting these?

03-03-2002, 05:04 PM	#16
Detached9 Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 341	Here's one I don't see too often - why would a perfect being desire anything? Yes, I've seen this one argued often. A perfect being desires to the create the world. Why desire anything if you are perfect? Desire implies that something is missing that wants to be filled.

03-03-2002, 05:06 PM	#17
Detached9 Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 341	Show me the universe and show me time. Depends on our definition of universe and time. Time could be merely the passing of events. The universe could be "all matter and energy, including the earth, the galaxies, and the contents of intergalactic space, regarded as a whole" (Dictionary.com).

03-04-2002, 05:04 AM	#20
Draygomb Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Harrisburg, Pa Posts: 3,251	1 2 1 4 1 10 1 11 2 4 8 4 11 5 9 5 10 6 9 6 10 8 9 8 11 9 10 9 11 10 11

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