Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RufusAtticus · 10-16-2002, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by l-bow:
<strong>Rufus: The rings compared were over a 5-year period. Also the intra-ring bands were also compared.
</strong>

Wow, that refutes dating all right. Out of five hundred thousand years, two sets of five years produce similar tree ring patterns. Wow that's like not statistically significant at all. What happens when you look at the sixth, seventh, eight and ninth years? I bet they don't match up anymore.

ps418 · 10-17-2002, 01:15 PM

On further thought, the 'correlations' are just crap. What's more, the link provided by Glenn Morton on the T.O. thread showed this pretty convincingly.

<a href="http://www.asa3.org/archive/evolution/199802/0170.html" target="_blank">See here.</a>

Quote:

Creationist person to Morton: What you missed were the intraannual rings which is where the ring matches lie.

Quote:

Morton to Creationist person:
No, I didn't miss that. I even stated earlier that the intraannular rings do not occur in the same ratio in the trees. In otherwords it appears that the slow growing periods didn't occur during the same part of the year for the various trees.

YSC002 has the first year ring that is 3.2 mm wide. The 3 slow growth zones (which is his sigunature) occur at .55 mm, 1.2 mm and 2.2 mm

YSC010 has the first year ring 3.0 mm. The 3 slow growth zones occur at .95 mm, 1.2 mm, and 2 mm

YSC013 has the first year ring 5.54 mm. The 3 slow growth zones occur at 2.95,3.8 and 4.8 mm.

YSC015 has the first year ring of 6.0 with the 3 slow growth zones occurring at 2.1,2.6, 4.5 and one not on the others at 5.0.

This will be enough to illustrate the problem. Assuming a linear growth rate

YSC002 has slow growth periods at

(.55/3.2)*12=2.06 months
(1.2/3.2)*12=4.5 months
(2.2/3.2)*12=8.25 months

YSC010 has the same growth changes at 3.8, 4.8, and 8 months. The last two are probably ok.

YSC013 has the same growth changes at 6.38, 8.2, 10.4 months

YSC015 has the 3 zones at 4.2, 5.2, 9, and 10 months.

The last intraannular ring in year 5 is a singlet on YSC002, a doublet on YSC010 a doublet on YSC013 and a singlet on YSC015

A similar analysis on year 3 intraanular rings would show similar problems and the bands on the year 2 ring have little correlation across the series.

Since the intraannular rings don't look the same from tree to tree and when that is combined with the lack of correspondence in the overall lack of
correlation of ring widths, I have serious doubts about the conclusion.

BTW, I wonder if any of the creationists using this argument would also accept the much clearer tree-ring correlations used to establish 10,000+ year tree-ring chronologies? Somehow I doubt it!

Patrick

[ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: ps418 ]</p>

Valentine Pontifex · 10-17-2002, 06:14 PM

To followup on Patrick's previous post.

Pitman actually replied to Morton article saying it was "reaching." Morton just came back with this killer post:

Quote:

Explain to me how the trees died in the same year, when the matches
(supposed signatures) are different ring counts away from the bark layer.
If the signature comes from the same year, we clearly have trees which
didn't die in the same year!!!.

Arct writes:
"Although bark was detected on five trees, the bark ring was not always the
same number of rings from the YSC Signature set. This occurrence indicated
either the trees did not die in the same year, or several of the ring series
had problems with missing increments, or deceptive false rings." ~ Michael
J. Arct, Dendrochronology in the Fossil Forests of the Specimen Creek Area
Yellowstone National Park, Ph. D. Dissertation, Loma Linda University, Dec.
1991 p. 38

This totally invalidates Arct's work.

As I post this it is not yet on Google. But in a few hours it should be posted <a href="http://groups.google.com/groups?as_epq=http%20www%20asa3%20org%20archive%20 evolution%20199802%200170%20html&safe=images&ie=UT F-8&oe=UTF-8&as_umsgid=aon231%24cv2%241@helle.btinternet.com& lr=&hl=en" target="_blank">here[/url ].

Or access it via Usenet [url=news:aon231$cv2$1@helle.btinternet.com]here</a>.

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