Rhea

If all they've seen is what he's seen, then he'd be disagreeing. When I say I'm not convinced, I'm saying *I* am not convinced. Period. I have no statement about what others have seen which is certainly different than what I've seen, since we are all different.

Why is that such a hard concept?

Jamie_L

I think this actually stems from a desire to absolve believers from evil. That is, True Christians don't do evil things. Thus, anyone who actually does evil things is, by definition, not a True Christian. They are, in fact, atheists. So, all those murderers and rapists are really unbelievers who claim to have been Christians. Or maybe they don't even know they are atheists. In this warped world, just choosing not to obey the tenants of Christianity may earn one the label of "atheist".

My response to any perceived "threat" from my atheism is this: If God exists, and God really wanted or needed me to believe, I would. He's omnipotent after all, right? So don't worry. It must be part of the plan, or I'd be singing in the choir right next to all the other believers.

Jamie

wildernesse

I believe that God knows the best/right decision, so I believe that he does judge/discern/can tell the difference between right and wrong. I don't believe that God says, you've made a harmful decision so I will torment you. I don't believe there's a so or anything after that.

I've already set a standard when I said that in my life, what I recognize as sin are selfish choices that harm myself and others. Doing harmful things is wrong--a "judgement" of sorts that I accept and I believe most of you do as well. I believe that God agrees with this "judgement" or discernment.

Earlier, I said that when people realize the consequences of their selfish/harmful/closing down actions(If there are any), they are sorry and are forgiven (IF they want/need)/open themselves more fully to God's love. I am comfortable with the idea that God can help us to fully realize the consequences of our selfish/harmful actions (IF there are any), which is judgement in that it declares that such and such behavior is/was wrong. I still think that the realization *can* bring self-condemnation and not condemnation from God.

God "sees" where we do selfish/harmful things, and the ability to differeniate between good and bad is judging, in a way. I don't think that God condemns us for making bad choices, and mediates any self-condemnation we experience. I don't think God loves us any less for our harmful decisions, but that by making them we lock It out of our lives in a small way.

I don't know if I'm being as clear as I can be about this--and I'm having problems with using the word "judge" when what I mean is more like "discern". I think God "judges" by Its acknowledgement of a standard, but does not condemn.

Thanks for the question, it has given me a lot to think about and helped me clarify some things. It brought to the fore a lot of traditional thought that I need to think about more.

--tibac

Biff the unclean

wildernesse: Please tell me how I condemn him by saying IF he feels like he needs forgiveness, I am sure that God would grant it and IF he doesn't then God will love him anyway. I believe this was the crux of your argument with me.

Sigh.
Well Starboy has been as clear about the subject as I possibly could be. So let me try another tact. I'm going to dust off the Invisible Pink Unicorn again because it is a deity that you know does not exist and substitute it for God. I'm going to substitute Methodist for Atheist, to see how the shoe fits. "Damned" is the most obscene word there is, since it stands for eternal agony. For "damned" I'm going to substitute "f**king idiot," it's wimpy by comparison but still obscene. You'll excuse me if this is a little broad…it's exaggeration for clarity's sake.
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Most believers in the IPU think that Methodists are f**king idiots because against all reason they don't believe in the IPU. It is said that they condemn themselves to a life of stupidity for not saying that they are sorry to the IPU and begging it's forgiveness and believing in her.
But who am I to say who is a f**king idiot and who isn't a f**king idiot. My best friend is a Methodist and do you think that I would say my best friend was a f**king idiot?
If we condemn ourselves to a life of stupidity and ask forgiveness out of that self-condemnation, the IPU will give us what we ask. If we don't, I don't know that it matters in the sense that IPU loves us always. Please tell me how I condemn my best friend by saying IF she feels like she needs forgiveness for being a Methodist, I am sure that IPU would grant it and IF she doesn't then IPU will love her anyway, even though all the other sects of IPUism say she is a f**king idiot?
I say this out of pure Atheist love because I don't want to believe that all Methodists are f**king idiots.
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Pretty nasty stuff isn't it? About as condescending as they come. You would have every right to be furious at me for saying such a thing to you. Yet you might recognize that some parts of it are lifted from your own writing with only the names changed. When you say essentially the same thing to Atheists you expect to be thought well of for saying it.

"Why some of my best friends are Jews....er, um, I mean Atheists"

Starboy

We now get to the nut of it. You may be able to keep the idea of god's judgment well compartmentalized in your interactions with people but there is no avoiding that you think god exists and that god will judge you. In as much as you wish a judgment in your favor it affects your actions. Since all of this is churning in your mind it causes you to view the actions of others through god colored glasses and thus you judge them. There is no avoiding it.

Starboy

Goliath

Jamie_L,

Wrong yet again. When a theist claims to have proof that their gods exist, I do not disagree with their claim, I merely ask them to produce their proof. Sadly, no theist has ever complied with this request.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Starboy

If you ask me Goliath, it is the sort of thing you would expect if there was fraud involved. Someday these theists are going to loose their get out of jail free card and be held accountable for all their lies.

Starboy

GeoTheo

Blondegodess,
I think you have a lot of different family and social pressures than other atheists. I find on these boards, the farther South an atheist is the more hostile they are to Christianity. I was raised in the North East. My Mother is a neo-pagan and a liberal democrat. My parents divorced and my mother dated an atheist for a long time. When I became a born again Christian my mother wouldn't speak to me for a while. She approached her UU pastor about what to do, as if I had joined a cult.
So I think becoming an athiest in the midst of a Devout Christian family in the South is more of a volitile situation than say a single college student in the North East, raised in a secular or liberal home deiciding that she is an atheist.

Biff the unclean

Why would a neo-pagan consult a UU pastor?
How does "being born again" differ from a cult?

beth

I'm sorry to hear that you went through that with your mother. That must have been very hard.