Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Hypernovean · 10-20-2002, 04:42 AM

As far as I'm concerned, Christianity is polytheistic. The concept of the trinity, in my opinion, was created by the church some time after it's creation in order to differentiate itself from other polytheistic religions. Unless history proves me wrong, that is.

Nataraja · 10-20-2002, 07:30 AM

Monotheistic, my left-hind-hoof!
I don't mean the Trinity, either.
Gods can be evil and the Christians have an evil god.
They don't worship it, but it is a god, nonetheless.

lpetrich · 10-20-2002, 08:21 AM

It would be interesting to find out when the Trinity was invented, since it is absent from the New Testament. I've seen the theory that it was invented to tie up some of the NT's theological loose ends.

And I've also seen the theory that "Holy Spirit" is Matthew's way of referring to the "Spirit of God" without mentioning Mr. G. directly. Notice that Matthew also refers to the "Kingdom of Heaven" rather than the "Kingdom of God", as the other Gospel writers do, again preferring to avoid mentioning Mr. G. directly. This would be in accordance with traditional Jewish custom, which continues to the present day with writing "G-d", as if it was a dirty word.

Also, as to polytheistic aspects, let us not forget about the Virgin Mary and the saints, who are practically a textbook case of euhemerism. Though they are officially "venerated" rather than "worshipped", that is a difference that makes little difference in practice.

This would have to be another later development, because the Bible itself makes no mention of a cult of saints, and because Jesus Christ's mother is only briefly mentioned in it. It's not clear from the Bible itself why she might be worth turning into a mother-goddess figure.

PandaJoe · 10-20-2002, 11:31 AM

I beleive that the concept of the Trinity was invented when it was realized that Christianity was really idolatry. They made Christ more important than God himself, and to correct that problem, they just started to say that he was God. Of course, this created more problems than it solved, since you have to twist logic into a knot for it to make any sense. How the hell can God be his own father?

Oh, and isn't the idea of one God with several distinct forms a part of Hinduism? And thats still considered polytheistic, right?

[ October 20, 2002: Message edited by: PandaJoe ]</p>

Atticus_Finch · 10-21-2002, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by K:
<strong>Bobby,

If God the Father can be living while God the Son can be dead, THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT GODS! If God the Father can sit in one throne while God the Son can sit in another, THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT GODS! Why do you insist that they are only one god if they are distinct entities? The only reason I can think of is because you don't want to lose that precious monotheist title. This doesn't even deal with the fact that Satan appears to have all of the attributes of a god. Is he somehow part of the Trinity?

By the way, just how many asses does this single god have anyway. You've already claimed that He sits in at least two thrones at the same time.</strong>

I'm not sure what "attributes of a god" you are referring to. The bible does not portray Satan as a god. For example, see the book of Job. Satan must ask God's permission before taking any action against Job.

Regards,

Finch

Celsus · 10-21-2002, 07:27 AM

I've read somewhere that Melchizedek was considered one of the elohim in Jewish apocrypha. Not sure about any reference for it. As for the name of God, the Eloist may simply have been using elohim as a generic term, until "Yahweh" was revealed.

I also just posted somewhere else the story in 2 Kings 3:26-27 about a Moabite king sacrificing his son, and thus defeating the Israelites, and falsifying Elisha's prophecy earlier in the chapter. That's some God.

10-21-2002, 06:41 PM

The trinity was not an invention but an inspired concept that will always be true.

It is based on our subconscious mind, our conscious mind and the relation between these two. When Jesus said "the father and I are one"
these two minds had merged to make the HS redundant from that point on. Hence the descend of the HS.

Christianity is monotheistic but the filioque makes it seem polytheistic. Actually, if Mary is the Queen of angels She has more to do with the HS than both the Father and the Son and if Mary is the Queen of angels no one can come to the Son except through Her. Hence, the saying "through Mary to Jesus."

Edited to add:
Next questions to ponder should be: who is this Mary? Why should the filioque divide Catholicism? Is it just a coincidence that protestants run away with Jesus if that was the reason for this divide in Catholicism?

[ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

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10-20-2002, 04:42 AM	#11
Hypernovean Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: - Posts: 67	As far as I'm concerned, Christianity is polytheistic. The concept of the trinity, in my opinion, was created by the church some time after it's creation in order to differentiate itself from other polytheistic religions. Unless history proves me wrong, that is.

10-20-2002, 07:30 AM	#12
Nataraja Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NC Posts: 433	Monotheistic, my left-hind-hoof! I don't mean the Trinity, either. Gods can be evil and the Christians have an evil god. They don't worship it, but it is a god, nonetheless.

10-20-2002, 08:21 AM	#13
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	It would be interesting to find out when the Trinity was invented, since it is absent from the New Testament. I've seen the theory that it was invented to tie up some of the NT's theological loose ends. And I've also seen the theory that "Holy Spirit" is Matthew's way of referring to the "Spirit of God" without mentioning Mr. G. directly. Notice that Matthew also refers to the "Kingdom of Heaven" rather than the "Kingdom of God", as the other Gospel writers do, again preferring to avoid mentioning Mr. G. directly. This would be in accordance with traditional Jewish custom, which continues to the present day with writing "G-d", as if it was a dirty word. Also, as to polytheistic aspects, let us not forget about the Virgin Mary and the saints, who are practically a textbook case of euhemerism. Though they are officially "venerated" rather than "worshipped", that is a difference that makes little difference in practice. This would have to be another later development, because the Bible itself makes no mention of a cult of saints, and because Jesus Christ's mother is only briefly mentioned in it. It's not clear from the Bible itself why she might be worth turning into a mother-goddess figure.

10-20-2002, 11:31 AM	#14
PandaJoe Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Bloomington, Indiana Posts: 188	I beleive that the concept of the Trinity was invented when it was realized that Christianity was really idolatry. They made Christ more important than God himself, and to correct that problem, they just started to say that he was God. Of course, this created more problems than it solved, since you have to twist logic into a knot for it to make any sense. How the hell can God be his own father? Oh, and isn't the idea of one God with several distinct forms a part of Hinduism? And thats still considered polytheistic, right? [ October 20, 2002: Message edited by: PandaJoe ]</p>

10-21-2002, 07:27 AM	#16
Celsus Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Singapore Posts: 2,875	I've read somewhere that Melchizedek was considered one of the elohim in Jewish apocrypha. Not sure about any reference for it. As for the name of God, the Eloist may simply have been using elohim as a generic term, until "Yahweh" was revealed. I also just posted somewhere else the story in 2 Kings 3:26-27 about a Moabite king sacrificing his son, and thus defeating the Israelites, and falsifying Elisha's prophecy earlier in the chapter. That's some God.

10-21-2002, 06:41 PM	#17
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	The trinity was not an invention but an inspired concept that will always be true. It is based on our subconscious mind, our conscious mind and the relation between these two. When Jesus said "the father and I are one" these two minds had merged to make the HS redundant from that point on. Hence the descend of the HS. Christianity is monotheistic but the filioque makes it seem polytheistic. Actually, if Mary is the Queen of angels She has more to do with the HS than both the Father and the Son and if Mary is the Queen of angels no one can come to the Son except through Her. Hence, the saying "through Mary to Jesus." Edited to add: Next questions to ponder should be: who is this Mary? Why should the filioque divide Catholicism? Is it just a coincidence that protestants run away with Jesus if that was the reason for this divide in Catholicism? [ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

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