Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jobar · 04-29-2003, 06:33 PM

Play nice Albert, or daddy moderator spank.

Seriously-
For example, a small boy pulling the wings off of flies is not exercising justice for his actions belie any loving empathy for the fly�s reality. No cause justifies the effect that the boy works, that is, a wingless fly has no purpose. The fly, therefore, was forced to experience unreality. But if a spider ripped the wings off the fly in the process of eating it, then the spider did not act unjustly, as the effect it worked upon the fly had a cause, the spider�s need to survive.

'Experience unreality'??? I know that you think evil is unreal in that it is inconsistent with God, and you consider God to be reality. But really, Albert, just how do you manage to rationalize the combination of experience and unreality?

As to rw's request for expansion on my idea that godly love & justice is related to the PoE- consider the fact that a perfectly powerful and perfectly loving God would never *need* to be just, because He would have designed his creatures to live perfectly ethical lives. If he did not design them so, he is not perfectly loving; if he would have done so but could not, he is not all-powerful. Sound familiar? My point is that, for God, any trace of justice denies his omnibenevolence.

K · 04-29-2003, 07:50 PM

Albert Cipriani:

Quote:

That sews up this thread for me. Stereophonic whining between the two of you without one decibel of argumentation. What a boring duet you make.

Wow. Where did that come from? I can only assume this means you are no longer interested in discussing this issue.

In the interest of keeping a civil discussion, I have summarized my last point. If you are actually interested in dialog, my response to your claim of Hell not being punishment was:

God clearly does not enforce justice on this earth. If He doesn't mete it out in the afterlife, He should not be called just. Justice is not an activity He deals in.

If God does mete out justice in the afterlife, then Hell is more than a chosen separation from God. It is punishment for transgressions.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 04-30-2003, 12:45 PM

Jobar and Bill Snedden,

I can't believe it...Bill Snedden and I actually agree on something.

Red letter day.

Anyway, Jobar I think Bill has a valid point: love and justice are not mutally exclusive (my paraphrase of Bill's post).

However, I would go one step further. I would say that within the context of evil...lack of justice would imply lack of love. Or conversely; in the context of evil, love and justice are joined at the hip...inseparatable. God could not say he 'loved' mankind and not enforce justice at the same time...this would be 'nice', but certainly not loving.

My 0.02

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Jobar · 04-30-2003, 08:10 PM

SOMMS:
God could not say he 'loved' mankind and not enforce justice at the same time

Non sequitur, SOMMS. Remember, we are not talking about love & justice at the human scale; God would exhibit perfect love. His love, applied to humanity- indeed, to the entire universe- would obviate the need for justice. (This is my answer to Bill, also. On a human level, I agree that love and justice are not necessarily polar opposites; but love from an omnipotent being would imply perfect care and nurturing, and this seems to me to mean that justice would never be needed.)

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 05-01-2003, 01:38 PM

Jobar,

Quote:

Originally posted by Jobar
SOMMS:God could not say he 'loved' mankind and not enforce justice at the same time.

Jobar:Non sequitur, SOMMS. Remember, we are not talking about love & justice at the human scale; God would exhibit perfect love. His love, applied to humanity- indeed, to the entire universe- would obviate the need for justice.

Yikes Jobar! I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to explain yourself now....

How would God's love obviate (make unnecessary) justice?

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Jobar · 05-01-2003, 04:56 PM

Remember I said this is related to the PoE? Given an omnibenevolent God, there would be no evil- and therefore no need for justice. From a God's-eye view, all his creatures would be loveable, and would therefore be incapable of doing anything which would require the administration of divine justice.

(And, of course, all the usual arguments apologizing for the PoE may be brought up in answer to this. Trouble is- AFAIK there is not a single valid defense against the PoE, so I maintain that there is no way an omnimax God can be called just.)

Clear?

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 05-02-2003, 09:48 AM

Jobar,

Dude...then this really isn't a conversation about 'love and justice'. It's about 'God and evil'. If you are going to first assume...

Quote:

Originally posted by Jobar

Given an omnibenevolent God, there would be no evil...

...then why even start a thread about 'justice in the context of love' Jobar?

Confused.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Jobar · 05-02-2003, 05:14 PM

I stated in the OP that this was inspired by the 'Is God love?' thread, SOMMS. And it *is* about love and justice- the divine sorts.

I thought perhaps there might be ways to refute my points besides the standard (impotent) defenses against the PoE. Maybe not, huh?

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 05-02-2003, 10:25 PM

Jobar,

Quote:

Originally posted by Jobar
I stated in the OP that this was inspired by the 'Is God love?' thread, SOMMS. And it *is* about love and justice- the divine sorts.

Kind of not.

Your just iterating the tired (and demolished) old complaint about evil...there's nothing new here. Essentially your saying...

-If there were no evil there would be no need for justice.

-A loving God would not allow evil.

Your argument is really nothing more than the complaint of evil with the additional line about justice (which, by the way, I happen to agree with).

I don't really agree with the 'a loving God would not allow evil' part. In fact I hold that 'justice' is why an all loving God would allow evil. In short, justice nullifies the 'problem' of evil.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

hinduwoman · 05-03-2003, 06:34 PM

I think it is more proper to speak of mercy and justice being incompatible. Justice is restoring balace and being a deterrent, but mercy is unmerited and no guarantee that the offender will not committ the same crime again.

In a criminal situation, theists speak as if only God is involved --- but the victim is there too.
If a man rapes me and God instead of meting out justice decides to forgive him because He is merciful, or refuses to confine him in way that would prevent him from raping me/others again because He values the rapists' freewill over my desire not to be raped --- then he is ignoring my feelings, and srewing up the very moral order He is supposed to have created.

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04-29-2003, 06:33 PM	#21
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Play nice Albert, or daddy moderator spank. Seriously- For example, a small boy pulling the wings off of flies is not exercising justice for his actions belie any loving empathy for the fly�s reality. No cause justifies the effect that the boy works, that is, a wingless fly has no purpose. The fly, therefore, was forced to experience unreality. But if a spider ripped the wings off the fly in the process of eating it, then the spider did not act unjustly, as the effect it worked upon the fly had a cause, the spider�s need to survive. 'Experience unreality'??? I know that you think evil is unreal in that it is inconsistent with God, and you consider God to be reality. But really, Albert, just how do you manage to rationalize the combination of experience and unreality? As to rw's request for expansion on my idea that godly love & justice is related to the PoE- consider the fact that a perfectly powerful and perfectly loving God would never need to be just, because He would have designed his creatures to live perfectly ethical lives. If he did not design them so, he is not perfectly loving; if he would have done so but could not, he is not all-powerful. Sound familiar? My point is that, for God, any trace of justice denies his omnibenevolence.

04-30-2003, 12:45 PM	#23
Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 889	Jobar and Bill Snedden, I can't believe it...Bill Snedden and I actually agree on something. Red letter day. Anyway, Jobar I think Bill has a valid point: love and justice are not mutally exclusive (my paraphrase of Bill's post). However, I would go one step further. I would say that within the context of evil...lack of justice would imply lack of love. Or conversely; in the context of evil, love and justice are joined at the hip...inseparatable. God could not say he 'loved' mankind and not enforce justice at the same time...this would be 'nice', but certainly not loving. My 0.02 Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

04-30-2003, 08:10 PM	#24
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	SOMMS: God could not say he 'loved' mankind and not enforce justice at the same time Non sequitur, SOMMS. Remember, we are not talking about love & justice at the human scale; God would exhibit perfect love. His love, applied to humanity- indeed, to the entire universe- would obviate the need for justice. (This is my answer to Bill, also. On a human level, I agree that love and justice are not necessarily polar opposites; but love from an omnipotent being would imply perfect care and nurturing, and this seems to me to mean that justice would never be needed.)

05-01-2003, 04:56 PM	#26
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Remember I said this is related to the PoE? Given an omnibenevolent God, there would be no evil- and therefore no need for justice. From a God's-eye view, all his creatures would be loveable, and would therefore be incapable of doing anything which would require the administration of divine justice. (And, of course, all the usual arguments apologizing for the PoE may be brought up in answer to this. Trouble is- AFAIK there is not a single valid defense against the PoE, so I maintain that there is no way an omnimax God can be called just.) Clear?

05-02-2003, 05:14 PM	#28
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	I stated in the OP that this was inspired by the 'Is God love?' thread, SOMMS. And it is about love and justice- the divine sorts. I thought perhaps there might be ways to refute my points besides the standard (impotent) defenses against the PoE. Maybe not, huh?

05-03-2003, 06:34 PM	#30
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	I think it is more proper to speak of mercy and justice being incompatible. Justice is restoring balace and being a deterrent, but mercy is unmerited and no guarantee that the offender will not committ the same crime again. In a criminal situation, theists speak as if only God is involved --- but the victim is there too. If a man rapes me and God instead of meting out justice decides to forgive him because He is merciful, or refuses to confine him in way that would prevent him from raping me/others again because He values the rapists' freewill over my desire not to be raped --- then he is ignoring my feelings, and srewing up the very moral order He is supposed to have created.

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