Coragyps

Just Mommy, a six-year-old soccer player with soccer ball, and snacks. It's The American Way (TM).

Peez

SUV = Sport Utility Vehicle, essentially something like a Landrover designed to be used in the city.


Peez

DMB

I hesitate to reply on this,since I don't know a hell of a lot about mammalian lactation, but I may be the only one who's posted so far in this thread who's actually done it (lactated). FWIW I have breastfed two children, one to the age of 12 months and one to the age of 20 months, although lactation can and did tail off over a very long process of gradual weaning.

I would point out that in the case of some mammals, the new-born infants are probably too immature to cope with anything approaching an adult diet. I would maintain that if it were not for the evolutionary struggle between infant head size and maternal pelvis size, human infants would ideally be born at least some months later and at a greater state of development than they are. As it is, without a considerable amount of medical intervention, maternal mortality is probably high enough to force us to give birth when we do.

For the first year, the human baby cannot digest all sorts of things. The fashion for early weaning that obtained in the developed world in the 60s and 70s, and probably later, led to a number of problems such as allergies.

Are any mammalian carnivores born at a similar stage to young herbivores? I think of kittens (and, I believe, the young of most cats), which are born only semi-mobile and blind. They clearly need more direct maternal care than, say, okapi.

Not only are human babies born pretty immature and dependent, but humans need a long period of learning and partial protection. This is also true of chimpanzees, although their childhood is shorter than ours. One thing I can testify to is that lactation/breastfeeding greatly strengthens mother-child bonding. I have never felt anything comparable to the closeness I felt to my babies when breastfeeding them. There was a definite stepping away after stopping lactation. I don't mean that I stopped loving them, but somehow lactation brought out amazingly strong animal instincts. I think most female animals seem to like lactation. Cats purr like anything while they are feeding their kittens.

I would point out that although a mother can continue to produce milk withut feeding, the amount of stored fat does vary considerably among species and a starving mother cannot usually feed her infant adequately.

Rhaedas

SUV is a marketing technique to use up more oil, thereby increasing oil demand and profits.

On milk and design, I think you're having problems because the mammal is a better design, for several reason touched on already. Evolution is on the ID supporter's side unfortunately, because if an evolution change attempt is flawed enough, it won't get passed down. Flawed designs are workarounds that still do work, some not as well as others, but could have been done better had there been some foresight, rather than evolutionary trial and error.

Rhaedas

Good points, DMB. I haven't directly been involved with lactation, but as a sideline partner, I know of what you speak. And there may be a mammal advantage to the bonding that goes on there.

What other animals besides mammals have specific mother-child bonds? Birds maybe? Few reptiles care for their young once they hatch or are birthed that I know of. Fish have schools and anyts have the colony, but there's not a one to one contact there, just group behavior.

What purpose does that bonding provide? Better protection and support for growth maybe?

lpetrich

A baby horse can stand and walk an hour or two after it is born; it is "precocial", as opposed to being "altricial" (helpless after being born).

Also, a SUV is not only a Sport Utility Vehicle, it is also a Suburban 'Uge Vehicle.

DMB

Can it be that for herbivores like horses the most important thing is to be able to escape predators asap? I get the impression that at least some carnivorous mammals need to learn hunting skills from their mother and so a somewhat longer period of dependency or semi dependency may be needed.

Re bonding: in some birds you get imprinting; I'm not sure if it's the same thing. Human mother-child bonding seems to be very important as at least some mothers who for whatever reason fail to bond with a particular child can be neglectful or even aggressive towards the child. I suspect that lactation causes the release of hormones or pheromones that aid the bonding process. It is a very physical thing. A lot of mothers like smelling their babies and babies as young as one week preferentially choose a breast pad soaked in their own mother's milk rather than a strange mother's. On the subject of smell, as long as a baby is healthy and solely breastfed, the motions are a lot less offensive than when they have started on a mixed diet.

Reldas of Melchezidec

Suppose that the act of suckling is beneficial enough to the survival of both mother and child, so that it is selected for:

While the baby feeds, the mother is at once able to use her full senses, and thus detect danger in enough time to save at least herself, if not the baby. Sticking your head down into a juveniles face doesn't allow for as much allertness as just hanging out and being watchfull while the baby does it's thing.

Suppose the baby saves energy because the milk-food is already body temperature.

Perhaps we already had too much stuff like stomache acid and powerfull digestive enzymes to be orally dumping it into a baby.

MAybe parents don't always swallow the best stuff, but the conversion to milk makes it all better.... maybe the parents take in all sorts of endoparasites while eating...........


There's more, albeit. Its fun to whittle away at natures secrets. I'm beginning to think theres enough out there to keep us entertained untill we go to sleep in his wakefullness.






:]

RufusAtticus

What about the bad design that fathers don't lactate, yet still have all the tissue for it?

Oolon Colluphid

D'oh! Actually, I've not previously included male nipples, not quite sure why. Um... sorry to profess such ignorance, but do all male mammals have them? I don't recall seeing things on dogs, hamsters or guinea pigs (the only male mammals I've handled much).

And do we have all the necessary tissues? I've heard of men -- male prisoners, iirc -- fed female hormones to keep them docile or some such, grew breasts and lactated... but it's little more than hearsay to me. any decent refs? It's a definite for the list if so...

Cheers, Oolon