Freethought & Rationalism Archive

David Mathews · 06-29-2002, 04:43 PM

Hello Splashing,

Quote:

Fair enough, it really doesn't make much difference what label you attach to your beliefs anyway, but if I called myself a Christian merely because I believe in the wisdom of one or two of the ten commandments, I don't think that the label would be accurate...

David: I don't have the least idea what you are talking about here. If I call myself a Christian that is because I am a Christian.

Quote:

You are right about being honest, I can't believe some of the things that you can admit not just to us, but to yourself! Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm convinced that if you stick around these forums you'll be an infidel in no time!

Since you admit that your belief is based on the merest possibility that God does exist, what clear reason is there for you to remain a "christian" and not a "brain-in-a-laboratoryist"?

David: My opinion regarding God and Christianity are based upon faith and not upon some empirical proof of God's existence.

To be perfectly honest, when I say that my belief in God is based upon the "merest possibility" that little evidence is still a great deal better than anything that atheism offers. Atheism doesn't offer anything at all, so my faith only needs a little bit of evidence to overcome the appeal of atheism.

Quote:

I am not advocating Brain-in-a-laboratoryism, David, I am simply showing that it is equally likely to be true as Yahweh since realities where either one is true are indistinguishable from a reality where neither one is true. The point is that choosing one over the other is arbitrary if both are unverifiable and unfalsifiable empirically.

David: Brain-in-a-labratoryism is just as reasonable, logical and rational as atheism. Neither atheism nor Brain-in-a-labratoryism appeals to me because both ideas are equally void of positive content.

If atheism had some positive content, perhaps it could compete with Christianity. As matters stand now, atheism offers nothing and that is why I reject it.

Quote:

Brain-in-a-bottleism is also indistinguishable from a reality where God exists, so where do we go from here? The fact that you are a christian and not a brain-in-a-bottleist is not because christianity has more proof, since realities where either of these is true would be indistinguishable from a reality lacking both, points to the fact that social and psychological factors are at the root of your theistic assertions, and nothing more.

David: I suppose that you are an atheist because of social and psychological factors. Do you disagree?

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 06-29-2002, 05:15 PM

Hello Rainbow Walking,

Quote:

Humanity has made much progress in verifying many facts about our reality. The existence of a god is not one of them.

David: True.

Quote:

Naturalism has barely begun and has already, via research and technology, saved more lives than theism could ever hope to duplicate.

David: You speak about medical science as if it excludes theism. You are mistaken, the majority of those doctors who saved so many millions of lives were theists. There are numerous examples of doctors who have travelled the world placing their life in danger and preventing themselves from earning wealth because of their devotion to God and love for their fellow humans.

I suppose that these examples of sacrifice demonstrate that theism has in fact saved millions of human lives.

Quote:

Medicine, technology and science are not based on idealism but a realism that has more than verified its truth-value.

David: True, but we should all keep in mind that Medicine is not atheism, technology is not atheism, and science is not atheism. Atheism is not medicine, technology or science. Atheism lacks any positive content whatsoever; medicine, technology and science are filled with positive content.

Quote:

In addition, and a very crucial addition worthy of noting, theistic ideologies engender an idealism that is anti-thetical to reality by asserting many absolute conditions upon the human mind that weaken its resolve and dedication to this life in anticipation of a future life outside of reality.

David: This is merely an opinion of yours. You cannot empirically verify that theism is contrary to resolve and dedication to this life.

Quote:

We share a common enemy, you and I, David: DEATH. Your worldview holds it to be a natural inevitability. My worldview does not cave in to it. Your worldview offers only conciliatory comfort in the hope of an after-life. My worldview labors to identify the many faces of this monster and find ways to beat it back.

David: Are you fighting against your own death or against the death of other humans?

Quote:

To be consistent to your worldview its mother aught to be taking it to the pastor for prayer.

David: I don't know where you found this principle in my worldview. Did you find it in the manual?

My worldview is that the mothers of sick children ought to take them to doctors trained and equipped to help them in their illness.

Quote:

Wouldn�t it be wiser to address my questions directly than appealing to these whimsical philosophies that make it appear as an attempt to tip-toe around the obvious? While �impossibility� has been a definite characteristic of your worldview in relation to verification, it has shown no signs of being a part of mine. That which has not yet been verified cannot logically be held to be impossible to verify in light of all that has been verified thusfar. So your claim of impossibility is not equally shared and is showing evidence of being a derivative of your idealism that must, by necessity, establish its authority in absolute terms rather than practical usage.

David: Please clarify. I tried to sort out what you were saying in the above paragraph and failed.

Quote:

People without a belief in god would have to seek other explanations to these questions and be honest enough to admit when they don�t know.

David: That's good. Regarding the question of God's existence, do you admit that you do not know?

Quote:

It simply boils down to a multitude of people believing what they want to believe and investing millions of man-hours into developing those beliefs systematically. But the entire artifice resides upon an incomprehensible foundation.

David: The edifice must of necessity rest upon an incomprehensible foundation. This principle applies with equal force to theism and atheism as both rest upon incomprehensible foundations. For the theist God is incomprehensible, for the atheist the Universe is incomprehensible.

Quote:

Rw: Not really David. Before we get to the bigger issues we aught to define the parameters. The first step in verification is identification. How do you define this god you claim allegiance to?

David: "God" is defined by the American Heritage Dictionary as "A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of te universe, the principle object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions."

Quote:

Rw: What factual knowledge can you present us to support your belief that a god exists? If you have none then your provisional answers cannot be considered correct.

David: The factual knowledge is primarily my own existence, secondarily the existence of the Universe and finally the universal reliigous urgency of humanity.

Quote:

Rw: And what practical value do your suppositions contribute? Do they wake you up in the morning? Do they provide you with a means to fulfill your daily activities? Do they cause you to go to sleep at night? How do you connect your suppositions to these daily activities and the rituals of your nature?

David: God doesn't wake me up in the morning, God doesn't make me fall asleep at night. What God does it dictate my attitude and behavior towards all the people that I meet in the course of a day.

Quote:

Rw: Would this include the religion that facilitated the justifications for 9-11? Historical precedence has factually established that people who adopt religious views tend towards religious intolerance that ultimately leads to violence and bloodshed. This matters to me a lot David. I am concerned for my future well-being and that of my family and nation. It is true in America people are free to believe anything they wish, but they also attempt to manipulate the legal, political and constitutional rights, guaranteed to everyone, to enact provisions forcing me to comply with their religiously generated standards. This too matters to me David. I think religion is a disease that people need an inoculation for. I see no good in it.

David: Religious fanaticism has motivated humans to commit many atrocities and engage in bloody warfare. Yet humankind has committed many atrocities and engaged in many wars without religious motivators.

I suppose that the common factor in all of this violence is not religion, rather it is humanity. Humans commit violent acts, humans are intolerant, humans act genocidal, humans engage in war, humans hate.

If you search the history of humanity you will find that atheists and non-religious societies have committed all of the evils that you attribute to religion. The problem of evil is a universal attribute of human character, not merely a byproduct of religious belief.

Quote:

Rw: Then you hold that rationality derives from presumption? Do you think the Muslims who flew jets to their destruction, and the destruction of many innocent people, were rational? They presumed the truth of their religious convictions and that presumption led to mass murder and suicide. Is that rational?

David: The Muslims were rational in their own minds. People judge their own rationality according to their own concepts of truth and reality. You do the same, you are no different from anyone else.

Quote:

Rw: David, if god were a self-evident truth there�d be no atheists.

David: Yes, I agree.

Quote:

Rw: Well, sure David, it is true that everyone, at some point in their lives, assert their beliefs and convictions. But this doesn�t assure us that the beliefs and convictions they assert are true. I�m sure they believe them to be true but that is as far as I can go with it.

David: That is as far as you can go and that is as far as I would like for you to go.

Quote:

Rw: I have David�truth. Is the statement �god exists� a true statement? Is that relevant enough?

David: The statement "God exist" is a true statement.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

HelenM · 06-29-2002, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
 God is too busy to notice that you hate him.

What kind of theology is that?

I think you are getting God confused with Baal...read this...

Quote:

1 Kings 18: 21 Elijah went before the people and said, "How long will you waver between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him." But the people said nothing. 22 Then Elijah said to them, "I am the only one of the LORD's prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets. 23 Get two bulls for us. Let them choose one for themselves, and let them cut it into pieces and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. I will prepare the other bull and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. 24 Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the LORD. The god who answers by fire--he is God." Then all the people said, "What you say is good." 25 Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, "Choose one of the bulls and prepare it first, since there are so many of you. Call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire." 26 So they took the bull given them and prepared it. Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. "O Baal, answer us!" they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made. 27 At noon Elijah began to taunt them. "Shout louder!" he said. "Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened." 28 So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood flowed. 29 Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention.

There's not one Bible verse that says God is 'too busy' to notice things or people.

love
Helen

David Mathews · 06-29-2002, 05:22 PM

Hello John,

Quote:

Thank you. Could you be more specific as to what this testimony is, or appears to be? I'm assuming it the "fact of existence" but I don;t want to jump to conclusions.

David: The testimony is existence, my own existence and the existence of everything else in the Universe.

Quote:

Sometimes I long for a cold beer, unfortunately that doesn't make it materialize. How are you supposing that the "eternal longing" makes you believe in god any more than I believe in cold beer?

David: Your faith in cold beer is true in the sense that cold beer does in fact exist. If you need cold beer to materialize in your presence in order to have in its existence, you will never know that cold beer exist.

My faith in God is true in the sense that God does exist. If I must demand a miralce in order to believe in God, I will never know of God's existence because God is not our servant, He doesn't obey our demands.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 06-29-2002, 05:45 PM

Hello Sandlewood,

Quote:

Strange as it may seem, some people would like to determine if Christianity makes sense before they decide to believe it�s true. But I think you have already presupposed that it�s true. So whether the concept of Hell makes sense or not is of no importance to you. It�s all part of God�s Plan, the Plan one that no one knows what it is.

David: I don't suppose that the concept of hell must make sense to me. Why should the concept of hell make sense to me? Hell's existence is not dependent upon my comprehension of its purpose.

Quote:

I was not saying that you are threatening atheists with Hell. I was referring to God making the threats.

David: Did God personally threaten you with hell? I feel sorry for you, if you believe that God has threatened you with hell.

If you want to go to hell, or if you think that your atheism merits hell, God may accommodate you. Perhaps God will send you to hell because you think you ought to go to hell.

If that is the case, perhaps the threat of hell is not from God but from your own self.

Quote:

Well, in the first post you made in this thread, you offered a link to that site. You don�t seem to be in any hurry to update it. You say that the �Questioning Atheism� section (or perhaps only the 12th part of it, I�m not sure) was directed at a specific person and not all atheists. Yet the essay is written in a form directed to all atheists. It�s odd that you would write it in that form if you were only addressing one particular atheist. And even though it reads in a way different from what you say you intended, you don�t seem in a hurry to fix it. All I can conclude is that the web page isn�t an accurate source of your opinions.

David: The web site is an accurate source for my opinions, but while I am alive the most accurate source for my opinions is myself.

I don't modify the documents on my webpage because all such modifications would serve as a misrepresentation of my writings. The content on the web site includes documents as they were originally written, and they should remain in that form.

If you really want to know what I believe today, you have to ask me today. Perhaps tomorrow I will believe the same things, or I my opinions may change. I don't restrict tomorrow's thoughts by what I wrote yesterday or even today.

Quote:

And my point there was that we should not precipitously suppose that things must be formed supernaturally when it is more likely that a natural explanation will ensue in time. Your illustration worked well to show that. In the past, there have been many things that were unknown, and when they finally became known the explanation was a natural one. Never has an explanation turned out to be a supernatural one. Supernatural explanations are only ever associated with things that are still unknown.
What makes anyone think there is such a thing as �the supernatural�. It has been engrained into our culture through myths, stories, and repeated assumptions. Finally people start to think it must be real. Supernatural can only refer to that which is unknown. Once we know it, it is no longer supernatural, it is natural. Anyway, I don�t want to waste any more time on that subject. There is no reason to believe that the supernatural exists and I don�t even think the concept makes sense.

David: I can't help but think that you are misunderstanding the supernatural and God's role in the Universe. Natural things are explained by natural processes, the supernatural is altogether separate and distinct from the natural.

There are no explanations whatsoever for the supernatural because humans do not perceive or observe supernatural acts. The supernatural always remains a mystery because humans can only speculate about what the supernatural is doing, no human could ever know that God was actively involved in the occurrence of any event.

Quote:

You missed the point. I was addressing the issue of whether or not atheism makes a positive assertion or not. I wasn�t talking about the argument that God does not exist because we do not detect him. You may have gotten different posts confused. Reading through this thread, it seems to me you miss the point a lot.

David: If I miss the point of any argument it might mean that the argument is pointless.

Quote:

You can make that argument for anything conceivable (or inconceivable). There could exist anything that we cannot perceive. But it�s not practical to assume that they all exist. What turns out to be useful and practical is to not believe something exists until we have some evidence (via senses) that it does exist. Atheists have made no assumption that God must be perceptible to humans. You misrepresent atheists there. But there is no reason to believe he exists because he is not detectable.

You have defined your God as being undetectable, and then you turn around and claim that we cannot prove he doesn�t exist because he is undetectable.

David: God is undetectable. I don't know why atheists would have any trouble with this principle, unless they do in fact attempt to perceive God.

How do you prove that God doesn't exist?

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 06-29-2002, 06:01 PM

Hello IntenSity,

Quote:

And why are humans "committed all sorts of sins and atrocities"? Satan? God? (I exclude Free-will because you ahevadmitted you cannot verify whether God gave it to humans)

David: Humans are evil creatures, human history provides innumerable testimonies to that fact. I don't know why humans are evil, I suspect that it is a matter of choice.

Quote:

Are you also Comitted To all sorts of sins and atrocities? Or you are not human?

If You aren't "committed all sorts of sins and atrocities", then please state which humans specifically are Comitted To all sorts of sins and atrocities.

David: I have committed sins, I have not committed any atrocities.

Quote:

Aren't we obligated to show "lost" people the right path?

David: Do you consider yourself "lost"? If you do, you should evaluate your opinions, beliefs and actions.

Quote:

If you know someone is wrong about something, don't you feel obligated to point that out to them?

David: I do point it out to people, though not so much by words as by actions. I attempt, as well as I can, to display the virtues of love, mercy and toleration.

Quote:

Does christianity encourage this "live and let live" care-free approach to social life?

David: Yes.

Quote:

If we all adopted such a care-free, self-centered and antisocial attitude, would we still be a "society"?

David: Yes, a society filled with love, mercy and toleration.

Quote:

Osama, then would not be obligated to explain to anyone to explain why he holds the beliefs he holds.

David: Osama does not, anyhow.

Quote:

Then if killing is so harmless and nature-assisting, why, pray tell, does God say "Thou shalt not kill"?

David: There is a difference between accepting (and coming to peace with) death, and killing other people. Killing others is an evil act.

Quote:

Why do christians bother to donate money and food to help the starving people?

David: Because Christians love and care for these people.

Quote:

Why dont we just let the sick die and ask the doctors to take a break?

David: Because we value human life, as we should.

Quote:

It would matter very much because if it did not matter, we would not even get to know that it does not matter.
You hold that opinion because you are alive. Everyone would like that chance to be alive and not get drowned by a global flood.

If your parents got killed when they were kids, you would not be here telling us it does not matter.
You really have some nerve!

You are like someone who is rescued from a pool of drowning people then you quip that "Argh, let the rest drown, they will still die anyway"
Why should someone not kill you if it does not matter? Better yet, why not commit suicide and die since it does not matter?

Its not just about one life, there are friends and relatives who are left in pain...

David: I can assure you that if I did not exist, I would not complain; and if I were dead, I would also not complain.

If I die tomorrow, that will just mean that I am dead. I have nothing to fear, though perhaps at the moment of death I will fear.

Quote:

Why do you believe this?

David: Billions are not going to hell on judgment day because if that were the case, the devil would not be lonely in hell. Satan won't have any great kingdom in hell, he won't have any reason to boast.

Quote:

Why are humans so evil?
If you created intelligent robots and gave them free will, would you sit back and blame it all on them?
Doesnt God share any part of the responsibility for humanitys' flaws?

David: Humans are not robots, that is why God has granted us the ability to be evil, rebellious and blasphemous. Humans are evil because people have chosen to be evil. Humans sin because humans want to sin. There's no one else to blame, the blame rest altogether upon humankind.

Quote:

Aaah, so when you have some dogs, put some landmines here and there on your garden, poison a bone or two and scatter them in the garden. Then release the dogs and let them excercise free will.

Are we responsible for all the floods that kill people? Do you honestly believe people choose to live under volcanoes? Do we also cause all the earthquakes that kill thousands?

David: Humans choose to live in dangerous places for their own reasons. The Universe is a harsh place, God didn't cover the earth with pillows.

Quote:

First, I would sincerely appreciate it if you clearly described this God (you see, I am an atheist). Give us his/ her characteristics, then based on those, I will provide you with what evidence I would need.

will continue later..

David: God is that being whose existence is not dependent upon your knowledge, belief or acceptance.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 06-29-2002, 06:15 PM

Hello MadMax,

Quote:

Then why do you conclude the biblical god Yahweh created the universe? According to you there is not enough information to resolve the question.

David: This is a matter of faith for me specifically because there is not enough information to resolve the question.

I believe in the God of the Bible because I believe in the life, death and resurrection of His Son.

Quote:

Truth is a descriptive term regarding how things really are. Finding out the truth facts of things has greatly enhanced our ability to survive and our standard of living - which is why we're interested in it. Of course this only works if you hold to the axiom that there is an objective reality to being with, and that our senses allow us to find out true facts about that reality. If you don't hold to that, I guess "truth" would be meaningless to you.

David: I don't know that there is an "objective reality" and I am certain that our senses do {I}not{/I] allow us to find true facts about our reality. Humans are subjective creatures and there is a lot of evidence of our subjectivity. Humans are ignorant creatures and there are abundant evidences of our ignorance. Humans are fallible creatures and history testifies of our fallibility. Where then is our objective reality and "true facts" derived from our perceptions?

Quote:

Since you seem to believe the statement "God exists" is a true statement about reality, I would guess that you would concur with all of this and there would little point to your question.

David: It seems that is not the case.

Quote:

I'm not sure what you mean by "positive content"? Does this imply that have to be 100% certain of things before we can determine that we have discovered some truth? Please explain. Are you 100% certain that the biblical Yahweh (or Jehovah) exists? If so, how?

David: All I know is that atheists have said that atheism lacks any positive content. I don't really know what they mean by saying so, though it would seem that it means that atheists do not make any claims subject to verification regarding the origin and nature of the Universe, humankind and God.

Quote:

Assuming Yahweh exists buts has no impact upon us, then it might as well not exist. It is as useful and germane to us as a spec of space dust floating in space 10 billion light years away - perhaps less. The invisible dragon in my garage may exist even if I am not aware of it and have no way of detecting it. However it is just as irrelevant to me as Yahweh if such is the case.

However I don't believe you really think this. I suspect you believe that Yahweh really is important to us and really does have an impact on us. I suspect you believe that the existence of Yahweh is a fact of reality. Its your inability to demonstrate this is claim as being true that is the problem.

David: Yahweh is evidently relevant to both of us, otherwise we would not be speaking about Him. However, Yahweh's existence is not dependent upon His significance to us.

Regarding the illustration of the "irrelevant" spec of dust in space ten billion light years away -- I can tell you right now that the 'spec of dust" is the collected mass of all human life compared to the vastness of the Universe. Humans are the irrelevant ones, individually and collectively. Our lives are temporary at best, our struggles are weak, and intellect restrained and all of our accomplishments are quickly forgotten.

What's the meaning in human life?

Quote:

But to be frank David, I don't think your being honest with yourself . If we find a cause of a disease, then we determine that is the cause - and you will accept it as well. If we discover how a car engine works, then that is the explanation of how it works - and even you won't suppose there is an underlying supernatural explanation. When we figured out how microwave ovens work, even you wouldn't suppose there are supernaturual forces at work underneath. I could go on an on. The point being that we have every reason to believe the trend will continue. If we discover how life or the universe began, and explain it, then that will be the explanation and we will not suppose there is still some underlying supernatural explanation.

David: You have faith that a natural explanation for life and Universe actually exist?

Perhaps your faith is true, but it is not any more likely to be true than the faith of any Theist.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 06-29-2002, 06:24 PM

Part 2 of my reply to MadMax,

Quote:

As Ochams Razor implies, there is no reason to complicate things unecessarily. The supernatural in general, and Yahwah specifically, appear to be the unecessary multiplication of entities. The weight of history is against the supernatural, but of course, anyone is free to dismiss this as evidence and believe in the supernatural anyhow. I guess I just don?t understand why they do so.

David: You don't understand why people believe in God. You don't even need to understand why.

Quote:

Thus we have the Deistic God. A deity that supposedly created the universe but is essentially irrelevant to us. For all intents and purposes, such a deity might as well not exist at all. I see no reason to conclude that it did create the universe or that it even exists. It's the invisible dragon in my garage.

David: To say that something is "irrelevant" is not the same as saying that it doesn't exist.

Quote:

And you may say that. However it's a straw man since I hold 100% is not necessary to be "certain". However, your claim will require support. I'm prepared to support why I hold some things to a high degree of probability. Are you prepared to support your claim that I should not hold them as such?

David: What things are you prepared to support? If they are relevant to me, we can discuss them.

Quote:

Yes you do. You do it the same way - at least for most things. I use evidence and reason to make such determinations. I just don't understand how you reached the conclusion that the biblical god Yahweh, spirits, souls, heaven and hell exist.

David: You don't have to understand.

Quote:

Sure, but what gives you this "confidence"? Mere whim? Unsupported opinion? Because to accept otherwise would ruin whatever point your attempting to make? What? As you have continually avoided actually arguing for any position you hold, I feel quite reasonable in rejecting such claims.

David: Arguments occur when there are disagreements, at the present moment I have not found any matter of disagreement which theists and atheists might argue. If you are aware of any, please do bring them up so that we may argue about them.

Quote:

Actually you have asked me to explain what truth is, you've asked about how the universe originated, you've asked me why I conclude that atheism is more likely than theism, you've asked me what motivated me to become an atheist, you've asked me what I see as the benefits in not believing the biblical God are, you've asked me how we would verify the existence of a supernatural entity, and probably lots of other questions that I'm forgetting.

David: I ask a lot of questions because I am interested in your viewpoint.

Quote:

When I asked you for why you conclude the supernatural, including the god Yahweh, exists, I don't recall ever getting much of answer. I've yet to see you actually argue and defend any of the points you have made - you just assert them. You assert Yahweh exists, you assert the bible God is all of the things you have attributed to it, you assert it can and will "save" atheists implying the further assertion that we have something to be saved from, you assert this deity gets to determine our ultimate destination implying the further assertion that we have an "ultimate" destination - heaven or hell, I suspect you would also assert the bible is the inspired word of Yahweh and the Jesus Christ was his offspring.

That's a lot of assertions which you seem uninterested in defending. Therefore, unless your next post reveals something new in this regard, I'll take my leave and wish you the best of luck. Take care and be well.

David: If you want to object to these assertions, you are invited to do so. That is the most effective means of producing an argument/debate.

What assertions are you denying?

Sincerely,

David Mathews

John Page · 06-29-2002, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
The testimony is existence, my own existence and the existence of everything else in the Universe.

If I may take the liberty of paraphrasing what you have stated: "God exists because everything else exists".

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
My faith in God is true in the sense that God does exist. If I must demand a miralce in order to believe in God, I will never know of God's existence because God is not our servant, He doesn't obey our demands.

My distillation of what you just wrote: "I cannot prove that god exists because I've been convinced I'm not worthy".

David, while my summary may be a little acid, I think its accurate in showing the god you refer to as completely imaginary at this time. I am not of the opinion that the above are the real reasons you believe in god, they are merely tautological statements.

Again, the question was "Why do you think you believe in god?" If your answer of, basically "Because I long to" stands as the only reason for your theism then my reason for atheism "There are very convincing explanations for existence that do not require god and even explain the purpose and function of fictious gods" seems a better bet.

Are there other reasons you believe in god that I should know of?

Cheers, John

sandlewood · 06-29-2002, 07:31 PM

Quote:

I don't suppose that the concept of hell must make sense to me. Why should the concept of hell make sense to me?

Well, I guess you have no idea what is it you believe in then.

You�re just not making any sense. I�m not talking about agreeing or disagreeing with you. I�m talking about making enough sense out of what you say to just have a conversation. I don�t think that�s happening. You�re not following along. So that�s it for me.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.