Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Amie
Perhaps however I personally don't see a whole lot of tolerance around here when it comes to people believing in God

The point I am making is that few if any unbelievers will deny a person the right to hold whatever belief they like. What we do not tolerate are attempts to force those beliefs on us and denigration of us or our point of view. Moreover, when someone comes to the discussion board, debate naturally ensues : this is not the kind of place where the Christian says, "God loves you, John 3:16" and everyone else goes, "We don't think so, but thanks for sharing and have a nice day."

It's important not to mistake aggression towards religion for denial of the right to hold that religion. I'll take on any poster's arguments, but I'll never tell them that they have no right to believe in a god, whereas Christians have told me that I have no right to be an atheist.

so I do not think at all non belief has any more emphasis on tolerance than a person holding a God belief.

There is no inbuilt imperative in nonbelief saying, "go ye forth and deconvert the misguided", whereas many believers feel it is their duty to switch us over to their side.

Tolerance is far more compatible with nonbelief than it is with Christianity.

Amie

And yet you remain "optimistic" at potential deconversions?
I disagree. It all depends on the person. There are many intolerant Christians and there are many intolerant atheists. Tolerance is more of a neutral position as opposed to having "far more compatibility with nonbelief". Tolerance is there for the taking but many just don't take.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Amie
And yet you remain "optimistic" at potential deconversions?

If you wish to discuss this again, please take it up on the original thread. I would prefer not to see this one derailed.

My optimism or lack thereof is not the point in any case. The point is that there is no inherent imperative in nonbelief to persuade people that you have The Truth, whereas the same cannot be said for Christianity.

I disagree. It all depends on the person. There are many intolerant Christians and there are many intolerant atheists.

Which of the two, theism or atheism, specified the killing of those who believed something different and tried to spread that belief?

Tolerance is more of a neutral position as opposed to having "far more compatibility with nonbelief".

Tolerance has far more compatibility with nonbelief because we're not required to try to convert others. We can "live and let live". The same cannot be said for most theists.

Ennazus

I understand that, Amie. I merely thanked Rhea for giving me another view to the "Why I don't like people praying for me" dilemma. And a "little prayer for my foot" is a worthless waste of time. Suzanne

brighid

Amie,

Thanks for taking the time to thoughtfully respond.

I would say that as a Christian, you are (at least in my experience) one of a minority. If you were to perhaps do a bit of an experiment and hop on over the Baptists Forums and say that you will pray to Freya for the _______ of Christians, I am not sure you would get the open and welcoming response you would extend polytheists, or monotheists of another flavor. I commend your openess and willingness to embrace other theists.

I think Baptists Forums is one end of a spectrum of theist responses and it is not reflective of more liberal denominations.

I think that many Christians would (if the practice continued despite being told to the contrary and I believe this to be the focal point of this discussion) eventually become annoyed, and many out right offended (if you aren't familiar with Jack Chick his tracts might be helpful in illuminating one common Christian response to non-Christians.)

I agree, except in the case where someone has explicitly asked or when one knows that the others belief system (or non-belief) is oppossed to that sort of action.

Do you believe in Gods other then the Christian God? Do you believe that a prayer to Allah will actually have a positive effect? Do you believe a spell cast invoking Kali Ma will also bring about the desired effect? Why, or why not?

If you do not believe in the actual existence of Allah (and as a Christian you cannot, by definition believe him to be God, or have any power whatsoever) it is logical to conclude that prayers to a God you don't believe in (although genuine and kind in intent) are rather superfluous, and can there by be seen by some as "silly"(even if you do not interpret them as silly.) That is how some atheists view prayer to any God.


I think, in general, it is rather callous to tell another person to simply "get over it." Well, you must certainly, as a Christian have many non-beliefs wouldn't you say? Lacking a belief in say Zeus as the Supreme Ruler of the Gods is but one likely "atheistic" belief you share in common with those folks who simply include Jesus within their pantheon of non-belief. A lack of belief in something, specifically Gods is not always a focal belief (which there can be many) in an atheists life. Although it can be a very valid focal point depending on a persons situation at any given time in his/her life, just as belief in a God can be a focal point in a theists life. One example of non-belief being a singular focal point in an atheists life is during, or prior to deconversion. It could as be if a person is dealing with healing psychological or other trauma suffered because of theism, or at the hands of theists.

I agree. Most people are sincere and mean no harm by it, and many others do so without thinking. This does not make it right in the given situation, just that said act is sincere and done without forethought. The actual act of prayer is itself incapable of causing me direct harm. A request placed to a non-existent deity cannot actually have a divine effect on any person, but that is not the point (or points) of contention here. The direct effect of a prayer given to a non-theist, or a theist of another flavor can and is harmful depending on the circumstances, and a prayer is not always benign.

If you know that I am oppossed to prayer, or I have asked you not to pray for me, and yet you openly disregard my belief (or lack of belief) system AND my personal request ... that IS harmful in the respect that it completely ignores my request and is thereby disrespectful. If you know I am an observant Jew and repeatedly visit my home while I am observing the Sabbat you are harming me. Many others have provided other examples of well-intentioned actions actually causing harm, so it is the result, not the intent that matters even if you don't agree that harm should have been caused.

No, I would not be offended if my father, as a believer was offered prayers by other believers. Although I do not prescribe to his (and their) belief system I would respect that system. In fact, that is what I do. My mother is Catholic and I know she appreciates certain religious artwork. I often purchase her some of that art because she enjoys it. I wouldn't purchase her a subscription to a publication by Focus on the Family, or attend a ProLife rally with her, but I do support her in ways that do not harm my belief system (and lacking a belief in her God is but A part of that system.) She may pray for me all she wants, and I am quite sure she still lights candles in every Cathedral she enters that someday I will return to Catholicism, for my health, etc. She no longer TELLS me about it because she knows I find if offensive, and that I prefer action not words. I do not send her Freethought, Liberal or Atheistic material and she no longer sends me religiously motivated mumbo-jumbo and has come to respect my requests, even if she doesn't agree with my lack of belief in her God.

Brighid

Rhea

I guess you don't understand my point.

Can you please explain the DIFFERENCE between using prayer to change the rules for certain people who have prayer available and using money to do the same?

Please discuss the DIFFERENCE between political corruption and intercessory prayer. What is the difference?


I can't tell the difference between the two acts.

Tell me, does it offend you, if someone offers to bribe a politician on your behalf? Would it offend you if your mom wanted to paste a POlice Benevolent association sticker on your car for the purpose of getting you out of tickets? Are you saying that you would be okay with hanging out with people who attempt to bribe officials on a regular basis? Whether the bribery works or not does not make any differenc ein whether I am comfortable in the company of people who think bribery is a good way to run a community.

Tell my how you feel about bribery. And then tell me what is the difference between that and intercessory prayer.

Infinity Lover

...fact remains, that that is your position. That you consider deconversion benifitial to the person, and you hope they will. According to you they aught to change in that respect.

And that is what Amie was trying to point out; that it's an individual thing, regardless off rather than due to beliefs. You were also saying it isn't something that's inherrant to nonbelief, but you do insist on making a distinction, and say that believing or not does make a diference. And that's something some would beg to differ. I live in a society that's only mildly religious, and it sure doesn't affect the level of tollerance here.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Infinity Lover
...fact remains, that that is your position. That you consider deconversion benifitial to the person, and you hope they will.

I hope they will what? "Adopt my way of thinking", as Amie put it? No, I don't. I have never set out hoping, "maybe this person will deconvert and become an atheist".

According to you they aught to change in that respect.

Where have I said that people "ought" to deconvert?

And that is what Amie was trying to point out; that it's an individual thing, regardless off rather than due to beliefs.

So, which of the two, the bible or Atheism : the case against god, specifies the killing of someone who practises a belief different from yours and tries to convert you to it?

Which of the two, Christianity or atheism, says, in effect, "go out and convert people who don't believe what you do".

You were also saying it isn't something that's inherrant to nonbelief, but you do insist on making a distinction, and say that believing or not does make a diference. And that's something some would beg to differ.

Beg to differ by all means, but provide some reasoning to back it up.

I live in a society that's only mildly religious, and it sure doesn't affect the level of tollerance here.

That's great for you. Not everyone is so lucky.