Freethought & Rationalism Archive

winstonjen · 03-23-2003, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Your parents aren't your creators, they are the vessel that brought you into the world. God created the human body, he created reproduction and the process of life, and he allows conception. All humans do is start the process and are entrusted by God to raise the child.

And humans can also choose NOT to start the process. God never seems to force anyone to have children. Therefore, we wouldn't be here if our parents did not CHOOSE to have us.

spurly · 03-23-2003, 07:45 PM

If this thread were a sea going vessel it would have drifted far from it's intended location and would be lost at sea.

Kevin

Bree · 03-23-2003, 08:11 PM

On the contrary, I think the discussion is quite relevant. Before we can ask "can an atheist sin?" we must first define what is sin.

Magus55 · 03-23-2003, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by winstonjen
And humans can also choose NOT to start the process. God never seems to force anyone to have children. Therefore, we wouldn't be here if our parents did not CHOOSE to have us.

And God gave you the ability to make choices.

winstonjen · 03-23-2003, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
And God gave you the ability to make choices.

And considering that he allowed us no input into the 'sins' he declared and therefore created, he is acting more like a dictator. Would you worship and bow down to Adolf Hitler? Because your god is acting a lot like him.

Magus55 · 03-23-2003, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by winstonjen
And considering that he allowed us no input into the 'sins' he declared and therefore created, he is acting more like a dictator. Would you worship and bow down to Adolf Hitler? Because your god is acting a lot like him.

Oh, so you think you should get to make the rules and decide what violates God's eternal nature. This isn't a democracy. God lays out his plan and the rules to follow. He gives you the choice to obey or disobey, the rest is up to you.

winstonjen · 03-23-2003, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Oh, so you think you should get to make the rules and decide what violates God's eternal nature. This isn't a democracy. God lays out his plan and the rules to follow. He gives you the choice to obey or disobey, the rest is up to you.

In that case, I would love to go to hell, because I would be away from an evil dictator for all eternity. Sounds pretty good to me.

Magus55 · 03-23-2003, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by winstonjen
In that case, I would love to go to hell, because I would be away from an evil dictator for all eternity. Sounds pretty good to me.

And that is your choice. Of course, since Stalin, Hitler and Saddam may be in Hell, you'll still be surrounded with dictators. Except in Heaven, you are eternally happy, in Hell you suffer.

Queen of Swords · 03-23-2003, 09:41 PM

Originally posted by Magus55
Because children don't have the knowledge or understanding to know who God is, what sin is and why they need Jesus as their saviour. Therefore they aren't held responsbile until a particular age ( which is different for each individual and God determines it).

Give me some biblical justification for this position. Jesus said, "No one cometh to the Father except through me". I don't see where he said, "except children, because they aren't held responsible until they reach a certain age".

In other words, don't just state that, provide evidence for it.

Because God executed judgement on the sinners and had a particular purpose in mind. For example, in the flood, the children lived in a society beyond evil even compared to today.

Please provide evidence to show that this society was "beyond evil even compared to today".

Had God let the children grow up to the point of being held responsible for sin, they would have rejected him and been judged. By killing them with the other sinners, God held onto them and brought them to Heaven with him before they could reject him.

Please provide evidence to show that God took the children to heaven rather than sending them all to hell. A bible verse which says something like, "And the waters drowned all the sinners but their children went to heaven to be with God" would do.

Also, why was it necessary for God to kill the children through the painful and frightening death of drowning? Couldn't He just have snapped his fingers and taken their souls to heaven painlessly? Did he have to force them to watch their families dying?

And finally, if it's a good thing for children to go to heaven before they can reject god, why is abortion wrong? After all, you're sending that child straight to heaven.

And as the cliche goes, God works in mysterious ways we can't always understand.

Actually, this isn't so mysterious - I understand that, as always, the god of the Old Testament demanded blood.

He is bound by his own nature. And nothing prevents him from throwing all humans into Hell. In fact he has every right to do so through perfect justice because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Rom 3:23. Thats where all humans belong.

So in other words, he could do this, and it would be very moral, and you would have no cause for complaint even as you burned for all eternity?

But in his infinite mercy and love, he came to earth and paid the penalty for our sins so we didn't have to face our inevitable fate.

Provided that we turned our minds and lives over to him.

He was Holy and pure, yet he died to carry the sin on the cross with him to pay your debt.

What debt would that be?

If God was the sadistic monster you describe, we would all be in Hell right now and Jesus would have never died for us, because he absolutely had no need to do so other than he loves us and didn't want us to face our fate despite how we treat him.

If he exists, much less loves us and didn't want us to face our fate, he would be making his presence clear to us right this minute, rather than hiding away and leaving an inconsistent book of blood to make a case for him.

And if your god plans to torture people for all eternity, then he is a sadistic monster. There is nothing humane about perpetual pain.

Executing judgement on people isn't murder.

It is, if the person has stolen a candy bar and you behead them. Hell is similar - punishment that does not fit the crime and which does not teach or rehabilitate the person.

The U.S executes people all the time for their crimes, and God does so too yet he can't make a mistake and execute an innocent person because no one is innocent.

Aren't you forgetting unborn children?

Let's get this straight once and for all, Magus. Are unborn children innocent? If not, what crimes are they guilty of, and should they burn in hell for these crimes?

Queen of Swords · 03-23-2003, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by Magus55
in Heaven, you are eternally happy

Not if I was surrounded by brainwashed shells which did nothing but reinforce the egotism of a dictatorial god.

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03-23-2003, 07:45 PM	#52
spurly Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Oklahoma City Posts: 710	If this thread were a sea going vessel it would have drifted far from it's intended location and would be lost at sea. Kevin

03-23-2003, 08:11 PM	#53
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	On the contrary, I think the discussion is quite relevant. Before we can ask "can an atheist sin?" we must first define what is sin.

03-23-2003, 09:41 PM	#59
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by Magus55 Because children don't have the knowledge or understanding to know who God is, what sin is and why they need Jesus as their saviour. Therefore they aren't held responsbile until a particular age ( which is different for each individual and God determines it). Give me some biblical justification for this position. Jesus said, "No one cometh to the Father except through me". I don't see where he said, "except children, because they aren't held responsible until they reach a certain age". In other words, don't just state that, provide evidence for it. Because God executed judgement on the sinners and had a particular purpose in mind. For example, in the flood, the children lived in a society beyond evil even compared to today. Please provide evidence to show that this society was "beyond evil even compared to today". Had God let the children grow up to the point of being held responsible for sin, they would have rejected him and been judged. By killing them with the other sinners, God held onto them and brought them to Heaven with him before they could reject him. Please provide evidence to show that God took the children to heaven rather than sending them all to hell. A bible verse which says something like, "And the waters drowned all the sinners but their children went to heaven to be with God" would do. Also, why was it necessary for God to kill the children through the painful and frightening death of drowning? Couldn't He just have snapped his fingers and taken their souls to heaven painlessly? Did he have to force them to watch their families dying? And finally, if it's a good thing for children to go to heaven before they can reject god, why is abortion wrong? After all, you're sending that child straight to heaven. And as the cliche goes, God works in mysterious ways we can't always understand. Actually, this isn't so mysterious - I understand that, as always, the god of the Old Testament demanded blood. He is bound by his own nature. And nothing prevents him from throwing all humans into Hell. In fact he has every right to do so through perfect justice because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Rom 3:23. Thats where all humans belong. So in other words, he could do this, and it would be very moral, and you would have no cause for complaint even as you burned for all eternity? But in his infinite mercy and love, he came to earth and paid the penalty for our sins so we didn't have to face our inevitable fate. Provided that we turned our minds and lives over to him. He was Holy and pure, yet he died to carry the sin on the cross with him to pay your debt. What debt would that be? If God was the sadistic monster you describe, we would all be in Hell right now and Jesus would have never died for us, because he absolutely had no need to do so other than he loves us and didn't want us to face our fate despite how we treat him. If he exists, much less loves us and didn't want us to face our fate, he would be making his presence clear to us right this minute, rather than hiding away and leaving an inconsistent book of blood to make a case for him. And if your god plans to torture people for all eternity, then he is a sadistic monster. There is nothing humane about perpetual pain. Executing judgement on people isn't murder. It is, if the person has stolen a candy bar and you behead them. Hell is similar - punishment that does not fit the crime and which does not teach or rehabilitate the person. The U.S executes people all the time for their crimes, and God does so too yet he can't make a mistake and execute an innocent person because no one is innocent. Aren't you forgetting unborn children? Let's get this straight once and for all, Magus. Are unborn children innocent? If not, what crimes are they guilty of, and should they burn in hell for these crimes?

03-23-2003, 09:44 PM	#60
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by Magus55 in Heaven, you are eternally happy Not if I was surrounded by brainwashed shells which did nothing but reinforce the egotism of a dictatorial god.

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