Corona688

Don't say it, show it. Huh? Who? Er...? What are you talking about? Which religion? What? Who is 'they'? The romans? The apostles? Judaism? You are being very unclear. It's difficult to see who you are railing against here, but I'll try to make some general points. How can you convict a system of belief? A system of belief is powerless without people that follow it. Religion is not some supernatural self-powered monster that can kill people of it's own will! What is this, parasite eve? This has nothing do do with my question. Are you incapable of giving a yes or no answer? Think that WHAT is a rational thing to do? You're being ambiguous again. Assuming you're asking me to answer my own question, my answer is no, of course not. I was asking you, and you have not answered. Jewish people, you mean? No. No, they did not. I have heard people claim the Holocaust didn't happen, but never before has anyone had the gall to tell me that Jewish people loaded themselves into their own ovens and gas chambers! Are you saying that the Roman Catholic religion should be advocating the murder of Jewish people? Your ambiguity is hurting you here. Er. The church didn't lead the holocaust at all, Light. We can look at the church with a jaundiced eye for not interfering, but the final solution was not implemented by anyone in the catholic pecking order. Hypothesis contrary to fact. There is no way for you to know this. People could feasibly continue to fuck whether the pope told them to or not. They could also feasibly continue to fuck despite the military telling them not to. In the end it is a human choice. And the only sure way to stop it is to kill us all. Your answer has nothing to do with my question. I shall note this as another dodge. And you've got your Alexander's mixed up. It's hard to imagine that Stalin could be any more restrictive of anything. He was a ruthless man, who had no problem with killing people, actively and passively, to get his way. It would take more than a slight shift in priorities to turn his iron first into something less than dictatorial. Absolutely not. I am stating the point that religion is not a cause, it is an excuse. Admittedly an extremely convenient one for anyone in power. Er. I don't recall anyone ever being thrown to the Jewish people. If anything, it was the Jewish people that were 'thrown to the lions', as it were. Millions of them, poof, gone. You are preaching to people who do not agree with you on this key assumption. The bible, old testament or new, is just another book. Quoting it will not make you look special. Prove your points on their own merits, or admit that they have none. Your arguments are quickly turning into personal attacks. You also make many assumptions and oversimplifications, such as assuming that since I don't subscribe to your philosophy OR the church's then I do not honor my mother and father. This is also an ad hominem, since whether I honor my mother and father or not is a personal attack irrelevant to the argument at hand. For the record, I do honor my mother and father. god cannot show anyone, anything through pure silence. As you have just demonstrated, silence could mean anything at all. The only reasonable guess I can make about such an absence of evidence is perhaps he is not there at all. Saying so won't make it so. By the way, news flash: Ancient Egypt had priests. And not just a god, but gods, many gods. It is also no more valid than any other religion on the planet. That's like saying "I don't have religion, I have a personal relationship with christ." You have strong belief in the face of facts, meaning faith, which is close enough to religion for me. Because that is what life in general tends to do. News flash: The military is composed of human beings, many of which are religious. And they make mistakes too. Hypothesis contrary to fact. Even if the whole planet's birth rate was under control there could still be war, and I suspect still would be. People seem to need little excuse to hate one another. The devil exists just as much as god does. That being, it doesn't exist at all. Use it as a metaphor if you like, but at least have the courtesy to tell people what you are using it as a metaphor for. Actually, the church didn't burn anyone in the Holocaust either. I'll grant that they certainly didn't interfere when it happened but they were not the driving force. You are preaching to the choir. I do not agree with the Catholic Church's stance, nor do I approve of many things it has done. But just because I don't agree with them, does not mean that I agree with you! Not until you actually said what you meant, no! Ambiguous loaded metaphors and flowery language could make for some interesting poetry, but this is neither the time nor the place. Say what you mean and I will not be forced to beat you with oranges. Um, religion doesn't force people to breed. Roman Catholicism certainly encourages it, and I disagree with that, but in the end it's the humans that are doing the breeding, not the church. Military organizations don't 'lead' people. They 'threaten' people and 'kill' people. There cannot be equality when threats and murder are used to keep things in line. You blame Roman Catholicism, when humans are at fault. Religion is not an entity by itself, it is an idea that is carried by humans. False dillema. I'm highly unconvinced that your religion OR catholicism is the truth. It is the BS of a religion that neither of us adhere to. Nor do I adhere to ancient Egyptian religion, which contained many equally irrational things despite a few astronomers getting their measurements right. Why you keep bringing these up, I am not sure. They are not relevant to our argument. The job of the military would be the same, would it not? To threaten force, and use force when the threat is called? The military would need to exert force to have any authority, and military force is a euphumism for murder.

You can't have it both ways, Light. A military dictatorship is not respectful, corteous, kind, or loving. Yup. So what? It will not happen the way you imagine it, Light. Instituting a world government through military force requires war. War burns through people like nothing else, you'll always need more. Why did you think the catholic church advocated a high birthrate?

Light

Originally posted by Corona688

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Originally posted by Light
But it IS religions fault.
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Don't say it, show it.

Because it encourages people to have TOO MANY children. As you say below. It is THIS which is the ACTUAL CAUSE of warring. A lesser birth rate would allow people to die naturally.
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He may well beat his breast exclaiming Mea Culpa.
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Huh? Who?

You never heard of the Pope?

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A religion that kills the first born because they are too small, quite untrue, deals in killing and suffering.
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Er...? What are you talking about? Which religion?

Have you never read the New Testament?

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They ended up by killing Christ because He was the first (and ONLY) born.
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What? Who is 'they'? The romans? The apostles? Judaism? You are being very unclear.

The HYPOCRITS of course, those who should have been His brothers. Remember "Thou shalt NOT kill."

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Is THIS what Brothers do to a fellow Brother? If so then it MUST be hypocrisy. Surely crucifying ANYONE in the name of "religion" is hypocrisy. If religion had not stooped to killing then it could not be held to be GUILTY
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It's difficult to see who you are railing against here, but I'll try to make some general points. How can you convict a system of belief? A system of belief is powerless without people that follow it. Religion is not some supernatural self-powered monster that can kill people of it's own will! What is this, parasite eve?

Any religion is PRECISELY a Supernatural hypocrite.

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Corona688:
So, I stand by my claim that some of the worst monsters in history have been military conquerers. Unless you believe that mass-murder and genocide are not crimes? Do you think the world would be a better place if one out of every three people suddenly died, right now?

[B]It would BECOME a better place if people had LESS children following the One Child example of Christianity, (i.e. NOT killing The First Born simply because He might be the Son of God.)

Light:
It was religion which constituted the Jews as Satan, Saturday, Saturn, satanic and had them praying on a Saturday.
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This has nothing do do with my question. Are you incapable of giving a yes or no answer?

It has EVERYTHING to do with the argument, the Catholic Church suddenly realised that it had made a "mistake" having constituted a real live satan so it attempted to use the Military to exterminate it's OWN "mistake". In Protestant religion satan is only notional, not actual.

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Do YOU think that this is a rational thing to do?
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Think that WHAT is a rational thing to do? You're being ambiguous again. Assuming you're asking me to answer my own question, my answer is no, of course not. I was asking you, and you have not answered.

Constituting the Jews as a satan.

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Did they not exterminate THEMSELVES in concentration camps of their OWN making?
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Jewish people, you mean? No. No, they did not. I have heard people claim the Holocaust didn't happen, but never before has anyone had the gall to tell me that Jewish people loaded themselves into their own ovens and gas chambers!

Then you have read NOTHING of the Warsaw Ghetto where the rich, including rich Jews who were given a document as having been of beneficial aid to the State organised the Military to exterminate the poor because they had TOO MANY children and were taking over everything as a Zionist cause because the Catholic Church wanted to force them to become Christians rather than play the role of Saturdays satan. They did this cheerfully even demonstrating just how much MORE savage they could be. They even invented the Gas, Zyklon B

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Is this the CHRISTIAN thing to do. Answer: NO. This is the WORST aspect of Roman Catholic religion.
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Are you saying that the Roman Catholic religion should be advocating the murder of Jewish people? Your ambiguity is hurting you here.

The forced conversion to Christianity.

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They now say that it was a "mistake" to use real people to play the part of satan in their little Heaven & hell scenario. The domain of the Crimson King, aka The Scarlet PIMPernel.
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Er. The church didn't lead the holocaust at all, Light. We can look at the church with a jaundiced eye for not interfering, but the final solution was not implemented by anyone in the catholic pecking order.

Then you know very little to nothing. This is NOT Gentle Jesus this is foul play.

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If a Global Military had ever been able to regulate the birth of children properly there would have been no need for all of the killing brought about by religious HYPOCRITES.
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Hypothesis contrary to fact. There is no way for you to know this. People could feasibly continue to fuck whether the pope told them to or not. They could also feasibly continue to fuck despite the military telling them not to. In the end it is a human choice. And the only sure way to stop it is to kill us all.

You do not speak of love here. Fucking is not loving. Having one child as REsponsible parents and bring him/her up carefuly and protectively as a wanted child IS loving.

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Corona688:How religious was Alexander the Great? Aside from calling HIMSELF a god, that is. And there was certainly no need for all the killing that he did. Neither do I recall Napoleon Bonaparte being particularly religious.

Light:
He was called a Holy Roman Emperor. Like a Herod of Galigula. Whilst Rome sits at the centre of this global amphitheatre with its matchmaking fiddler, fiddling with YOUR balls and then burning people if you do not believe in their little double dealing game, where they fleece sheep.
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Your answer has nothing to do with my question. I shall note this as another dodge. And you've got your Alexander's mixed up.

Napoleon was a Holy Roman Emperor. If people had stuck to the single child model then there would be NO need for all of this killing. We are NOW SUPPOSED to be CIVILISED. We were MORE Civilised before the industrial revolution. But it still did not stop people from having TOO MANY CHILDREN and causing an exponential population explosion and over-developing some areas of the planet whilst others remain almost totally undeveloped. Or is it that this is not obvious to you?

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Corona688:
Stalin was actually anti-religious, and he still killed.

Would you not destroy enemies of the State who had determined to kill you instead of allowing you to live in peace? Religious hypocrites who wish to use evil af-gainst the State and its elected or duly appointed Officers. You don't VOTE for religion do you? So why should they have ANY power over you? Your duty is to UPHOLD the State not to feed irresponsible and evil Religious Criminals.

Light:
He should have restricted the activities of these religious hypocrites and RE-Gulated His society properly. This is NOW being done by the State. It could never be done by religion BECAUSE of its double-dealing hypocrisy.
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It's hard to imagine that Stalin could be any more restrictive of anything. He was a ruthless man, who had no problem with killing people, actively and passively, to get his way. It would take more than a slight shift in priorities to turn his iron first into something less than dictatorial.

Because religion, starting with Rasputin, was undermining the workings of the State by allowing VAST quantities of the poor to plead religious poverty. We are so poor because it is good for the soul, YOU must feed OUR children. Crosss our palms with silver or we will visit evil upon you. Do you see any science in this at all?

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So you think that religion and popes are God.
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Absolutely not. I am stating the point that religion is not a cause, it is an excuse. Admittedly an extremely convenient one for anyone in power.

Especially for those who stupidly and willfully "religiously" wish to bring down the very state in which they themselves live simply to fulfill fatalistic religious prophesy. Obviously this is not even rational thinking. So they MUST be MAD.

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Where Christians who are NOT roman catholic are thrown to the "lions" of judaeism, the Roman churche's tame satan. (They DO acknowledge that this is a "slight" mistake. Quote from the Vatican: "For the mistakes we might have made." Fools!)
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Er. I don't recall anyone ever being thrown to the Jewish people. If anything, it was the Jewish people that were 'thrown to the lions', as it were. Millions of them, poof, gone.

The ENTIRE point of constituting the Jews as satan was to throw people to satan in this twisted fools red and black religious mad-cap madness. "Le Rouge et le Noir ne s'epouse t'ils pas?

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Matthew, like Christ, had NO religion, He was helping Jesus to found one. NEW Testament.
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You are preaching to people who do not agree with you on this key assumption. The bible, old testament or new, is just another book. Quoting it will not make you look special. Prove your points on their own merits, or admit that they have none.

Why call any priest or rabbi your father, when it is clear that they are not?

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So you don't believe in honouring your mother and father? If you are able to. Most people can do so. But NOT where third party Roman INTERFERENCE is concerned, producing more poverty and criminality than ANY other organisation in a stupid attempt to see the mighty (The State) Fallen. (Church versus State.)
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Your arguments are quickly turning into personal attacks. You also make many assumptions and oversimplifications, such as assuming that since I don't subscribe to your philosophy OR the church's then I do not honor my mother and father. This is also an ad hominem, since whether I honor my mother and father or not is a personal attack irrelevant to the argument at hand. For the record, I do honor my mother and father.
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Corona688:
He never commanded me. Why?

Light:
To show you that religion is a bag of tricks far removed from the Truth. Pure science has NO religious tricks or trickery. It is IMPURE (corrupt) religion which deals in trickery.
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God cannot show anyone, anything through pure silence.

Pure SCIENCE. However I agree with your point. "Hello Darkness My Old Friend", and the "Sound of silence" are worthless attributes.

As you have just demonstrated, silence could mean anything at all. The only reasonable guess I can make about such an absence of evidence is perhaps He is not there at all.

He just does not say anything. Silent and deadly.

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NOT if you study Egypt from a purely scientific point of view. Then you know ALL about the workings of God, without any further religion, with NO church and with NO priests of rabbis, as Matthew said is the case, then as it is now.
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Saying so won't make it so. By the way, news flash: Ancient Egypt had priests. And not just a god, but gods, many gods. It is also no more valid than any other religion on the planet.

These were not gods they were deified aspects of spiritual religious working. They got nto trouble by NOT being monotheistic, wishing to be regarded as gods before God The Father Creator, Ptah.

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I don't have a religion. I have a scientific belief, which stems from the science of Egypt. I have no need for religion.
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That's like saying "I don't have religion, I have a personal relationship with Christ." You have strong belief in the face of facts, meaning faith, which is close enough to religion for me.

Knowing God is not faith, it is Knowing.

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Why would anyone have more children when there is no room, or renewable resources, for them to live sustainably on a self-sustaining planet.
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Because that is what life in general tends to do.

The typical fatalists answer. It does not mean that it should remain this way.

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Must they breed like lemmings until apocalypse overwhelms them? Any Military Commander will tell you what happens to any army which outreaches its ability to supply itself. It fails. Logic And Logistics, not religion.
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News flash: The military is composed of human beings, many of which are religious. And they make mistakes too.

Which is why State and Church need to have a common policy and not be divorced. They should both agree to a single child policy. (See: First Born.)

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I agree with you. However, given the single child role model people should not have been encouraged to have so many children. Had they had a single child policy LONG ago, then they could have been living in PEACE as they are supposed to do. They would then have NO need for ABC WMD.
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Hypothesis contrary to fact. Even if the whole planet's birth rate was under control there could still be war, and I suspect still would be. People seem to need little excuse to hate one another.

By the very fact that the poor have too many children and overwhelm the state and its ability to REgulate the population properly. This actually BREEDS the very hatred you speak about.

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This is the evil of the devil. It IS happening ALL the time.
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The devil exists just as much as God does. That being, it doesn't exist at all. Use it as a metaphor if you like, but at least have the courtesy to tell people what you are using it as a metaphor for.
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Corona688:
3) Nor does Rome burn people who are not roman-catholics.
Light:
Not since the Holocaust you mean.
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Actually, the church didn't burn anyone in the Holocaust either. I'll grant that they certainly didn't interfere when it happened but they were not the driving force.

So what was the driving force? Economics? Or did the church simply agree that this was the right thing to do?

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Rome burning MEANS burning those who do not agree with Rome. See: Joan of Arc for an historical example. Would a CIVILISED religion do such a thing?
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You are preaching to the choir. I do not agree with the Catholic Church's stance, nor do I approve of many things it has done. But just because I don't agree with them, does not mean that I agree with you!
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You do NOT understand the deliberately ambiguous DUPLICITY of statements like Rome burning/burns, meaning that it burns PEOPLE.
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Not until you actually said what you meant, no! Ambiguous loaded metaphors and flowery language could make for some interesting poetry, but this is neither the time nor the place. Say what you mean and I will not be forced to beat you with oranges.

Sweet William of Orange? As anti-catholic as anyone could be.

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Because religion breeds too many people IN THE FIRST PLACE becuase they are irREsponsible CRIMINALS.
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Um, religion doesn't force people to breed.

Nor does it instruct them to remain with a one child model. A "sin" of ommission maybe. I hear Mea Maxima Culpa coming from somewhere.

Roman Catholicism certainly encourages it, and I disagree with that, but in the end it's the humans that are doing the breeding, not the church.

As I said, the church is NOT giving ADEQUATE instruction. So much then for ther "authority", based ONLY in evil doing.

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ONE Global Military Organisation would lead the people FAR better than any number of sectarian religions. There would be the SAME rules for everybody, and ALL would be treated Equally.
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Military organizations don't 'lead' people. They 'threaten' people and 'kill' people. There cannot be equality when threats and murder are used to keep things in line.

If EVERYONE were to led properly and carefully REgulated then there would be NO need for killing in ONE Global Military Organisation, would there! Better than some madman playing the Organ surely. What the hell good has that ever done anyone?.

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You don't have to kill ANYONE, let alone crucify them if they are not born. But because religion does not and WILL NOT allow family planning and follow a single child policy, often attacking the first born "weakling" it creates Unnecessary suffering where there should be NONE.
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You blame Roman Catholicism, when humans are at fault. Religion is not an entity by itself, it is an idea that is carried by humans.

So you agree that the instant that humans have the Wisdom to give up their religion they could REgulate ther numbers and start being nice to each other instead of being bigited sectarian hypocrits. Thank you..

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Because the sectarian nature of religion and different churches means that, unless they can become ONE they cannot control ... anything, simply because they cannot treat everyone fairly and in the same way. �galmit�, Fraternit� and Libert�. The TRUTH sets you free NOT a pack of lies from a double-dealing bunch of hypocrites playing heaven and hell.
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False dillema. I'm highly unconvinced that your religion OR catholicism is the truth.

So what IS the truth which you seek? Is it the Truth of Goodness? It certainly cannot be the false "truth" of evil. So beware false "gods" is good advise.

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THE worst "monster" in ALL of history is Rome. Imagine a church that INSISTS that the Sun orbits the Earth when the Egyptians already knew LONG AGO that the Earth orbits the Sun. The Egyptians even fixed the stars in the sky. So just what is all of this Roman BS?
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It is the BS of a religion that neither of us adhere to. Nor do I adhere to ancient Egyptian religion, which contained many equally irrational things despite a few astronomers getting their measurements right. Why you keep bringing these up, I am not sure. They are not relevant to our argument.

Because the TRUTH of science, even from Egypt, is more pure than the religion it portrays. The Egyptians fixed the position of the Constellation Orion, and the pyramids are laid out in the shape of this Constellation. This IS MUCH MORE than a slight coincidence. You have, presulably read about the Jews and the Pharaohs? Exodus, the flight from Egypt?

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As long as it is a BENEVOLANT Military which looks after people properly and shows them respect, courtesy, kindness and LOVING helpfulness there should NOT be a problem.
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The job of the military would be the same, would it not? To threaten force, and use force when the threat is called? The Military would need to exert force to have any authority, and Military force is a euphumism for murder.

Crucifixion is also a euphimism for murder. If the child had been brought up in a MORE protective and less evil environment then these murders would NOT happen.

You can't have it both ways, Light. A military dictatorship is not respectful, corteous, kind, or loving.

I have never mentioned a dictatorship, you did. My Fathers Army was NOT a dictatorship. It fought AGAINST one which was condoned by an anti-Protestant Catholic church filled with CRIMINALS playing STUPID games of Heaven & hell and who breed like the ridiculous fatalistic Bloody Crazy (BC) LEMMINGS they are.

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The people have MORE respect for the President than for all of these corrupt "churchmen" playing Heaven & hell devils & satans.
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Yup. So what?

So get rid of religion, and get RID of evil at the same time.

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"Better the devil you know"? Better to have NONE at all.
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It will not happen the way you imagine it, Light. Instituting a world government through military force requires war. War burns through people like nothing else, you'll always need more. Why did you think the catholic church advocated a high birthrate?

Simply to maintain ITSELF in power by disabling the State's (All states) ability to properly and correctly regulate the population. And because it does not know what else to do. For every poor sinner it breeds ten more. But then its "leader" is a poor fool.

Corona688

You are correct in that circular logic leads to war; you need more people for the war effort, you need more space for the more people, you need more war to get more space, more people for the war effort, etc. However, since it IS a circle with one effect causing the other, it's impossible to just point at something and say 'There, that caused it!'

More to the point, war existed before the catholic church did. The church certainly isn't helping, but is it a cause, or an effect? Who cares? Blaming it accomplishes nothing, especially with me and other atheists and agnostics, who weren't following it in the first place. I certainly have. You didn't name him, however, and I fail to see how he is at all relevant to the subject of global control anyway. I certainly have. You didn't name it, however, and I fail to see how it is at all relevant to the subject of global control anyway. And yet you would advocate military control of the world. Does this not make you a hypocrite? Religion as you have defined it DOES NOT EXIST. Religion only exists in the minds of it's followers. Address this fact, please. If there was a point in this sentence, I can't see it. Where I live, I certainly don't see people killing their first born. Nor was jesus killed because they thought he was the son of god; rather, the myth says he was killed because they thought he wasn't the son of god, i.e. a false prophet. So you're saying that catholicism created it's own real live satan, symbolically at least, with the Jewish people, then used the military in an attempt to exterminate it?

Again, your views are out of line with the facts. The "final solution" was not implemented by the pope, the cardinals, nor anyone else in the catholic pecking order. Their crime with respect to it is the crime of noninterference. You are unclear on what 'constituting the Jews as satan' MEANS. Do you mean the catholic church considered them as satan in physical form and set out to exterminate them? That certainly never happened, except perhaps a fair bit of scapegoating in the middle ages. And so the ugliness behind the facade is revealed. The depth of the hate and ignorance in this demented run-on sentence is below contempt.

Do you really think that Fritz Haber would have created Zyklon B, if he had known what it would be used for? Do you really think that he happily contributed to the Nazi extermination effort, given he was expelled from Germany in 1934? Do you really think that rich Jews happily damned their own people? Was anyone in the Nazi administration a jew? I can easily imagine the Nazis being more than willing to seize Jewish assets and use them for their own ends but that can hardly be blamed on the Jewish! Does the mere fact of their Jewishness make them evil? Is there ANYTHING they have done to merit the genocide of an entire cultural group consisting of millions of independent human beings? There is no justifaction for that. Nor did they feed themselves into the Nazi ovens and gas chambers. You assert, you assert, but you demonstrate nothing. This discussion on the merits and drawbacks of world control has devolved into an attempt to blame the catholic church for all the evils in this world. War, religion, atrocity, and everything you place squarely on their shoulders has been around a lot longer than catholicism has, or christianity has, or even judaism has. Why so much hate directed at a symptom? Neither were you. And like it or not, reproduction can happen without love, though I certainly do not advocate such a thing. I am simply speaking of facts. Napoleon!? I wasn't talking about Napoleon! It is not obvious that we were more civillized before the industrial revolution, no. Disease, sanitation, famine, and, yes, war were present even then. If the only standard by which you define civillization is low population, then a dead planet would certainly be the peak of civillization, no? Rasputin? We were talking about stalin. Nice dodge. And once again, you demonstrate no facts at all, you simply assert what you imagine the world to be and expect us all to take your word for it. Non sequitor. I expected an argument, and you give me more frothing ravings against the catholic church. I know all those words, but that sentence makes no sense. I do not. And since this also has absolutely nothing to do with the argument at hand, I will mark this as another dodge. In saying that god cannot demonstrate anything to anyone with pure science, you have just torpedoed the entire foundation of your argument, that being the "scientific" foundation of god in ancient egypt. You are the weakest link. Goodbye. This personal threat has been noted as yet another dodge. Unfortunately, the facts don't bear you out on this one. They did worship these gods. Nothing can be known without evidence, your nonexistent god included. Neither do I agree that it should. Yet you still have this fixation on blame, which does not help the problem. Yet again you sabotage your own argument, that being there should be NO church. The church stood by and did nothing. The driving force was plain old xenophobia, the same thing we've had since before the dawn of civillization - the nazis weren't just burning Jewish people, they also got rid of their mentally infirm, their crippled, their resident Gypsies, Polish, and on, and on, and on. Raw hate of everyone but themselves. I just thought that webcomic was funny. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Once the enemy's all dead, we won't need to kill anyone any more! Where have I heard that before... Surely you're not claiming the world is being led by the catholic church anymore. That hasn't been the case for ages. I think it is possible. I also don't think everyone IS a bigoted sectarian hypocrite. Nor do I think the catholic church has any real power anymore. You insist on looking at things in a black and white fashion. As far as anyone can tell, all gods are false, so your advice is hardly needed. And sooner or later, one has to stop searching for truth, and start searching for lunch. At that note, I shall bring this effort to a close. You have shot yourself in the foot many, many times and alienated yourself from anyone who might have helped you in your latest diatribe, my effort is no longer needed. Good day.

Light

Originally posted by Corona688

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Originally posted by Light
Because it encourages people to have TOO MANY children. As you say below. It is THIS which is the ACTUAL CAUSE of warring. A lesser birth rate would allow people to die naturally.
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You are correct in that circular logic leads to war; you need more people for the war effort, you need more space for the more people, you need more war to get more space, more people for the war effort, etc. However, since it IS a circle with one effect causing the other, it's impossible to just point at something and say 'There, that caused it!'

More to the point, war existed before the Catholic church did. The church certainly isn't helping, but is it a cause, or an effect? Who cares? Blaming it accomplishes nothing, especially with me and other atheists and agnostics, who weren't following it in the first place.

You should ask yourself why it is that the Isaelis are fighting a Holy War in the Holy Land if it were not for religion. Why is the present Pope known as "The Warrior Pope" what is HE fighting for, Peace?

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You never heard of the Pope?
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I certainly have. You didn't name him, however, and I fail to see how he is at all relevant to the subject of global control anyway.

Quite so I don't see how he is RE-LEVANT either. Maybe you do.

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Have you never read the New Testament?
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I certainly have. You didn't name it, however, and I fail to see how it is at all relevant to the subject of global control anyway.

Because, f you don't crucify people then you are not killing them. So why fight a Holy War in the LEVANT?

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The HYPOCRITS of course, those who should have been His brothers. Remember "Thou shalt NOT kill."
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And yet you would advocate Military Control of the world. Does this not make you a hypocrite?

NOT if the Military are not killing people but simply RE-Gulating society effectively in such a way that this becomes unnecessary.

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Any religion is PRECISELY a Supernatural hypocrite.
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Religion as you have defined it DOES NOT EXIST. Religion only exists in the minds of it's followers. Address this fact, please.

And what of Supernatural evil then? Why would any religion talk of devils ansd satans if these concepts did not exist in THEIR minds? Does this not make them the very devils and satans which they say should not be here?

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It would BECOME a better place if people had LESS children following the One Child example of Christianity, (i.e. NOT killing The First Born simply because He might be the Son of God.)
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If there was a point in this sentence, I can't see it. Where I live, I certainly don't see people killing their first born. Nor was Jesus killed because they thought he was the Son of God; rather, the myth says He was killed because they thought He wasn't the Son of God, i.e. a false prophet.

No, NOT a false Prophet, this is religion again. Christ had NO religion, He founded one, so why kill Him? Because they wanted to maintain their rule of terror, crucifying, torturing and killing. They literally crucified people in the time.

This same situation is maintained by the Catholic church in the name of ... their hypocritical religion. Hyper-critical might be a better description. Bill Cohen was, only recently talking about The Spanish Inquistion which persecuted the Jews.

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It has EVERYTHING to do with the argument, the Catholic Church suddenly realised that it had made a "mistake" having constituted a real live satan so it attempted to use the Military to exterminate it's OWN "mistake". In Protestant religion satan is only notional, not actual.
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So you're saying that catholicism created it's own real live satan, symbolically at least, with the Jewish people, then used the Military in an attempt to exterminate it?

Yes, it was the Catholic CHURCH which conducted the excercise against defenseless women and children after realising tht it had made a fundamental mistake in constituting the Jews as Saturday's satan. Having caused them to breed in the FIRST place as a form of satanic SS. The Catholic church regarded these people to be of sub-normal intelligence and anti-catholic.

Again, your views are out of line with the facts. The "final solution" was not implemented by the pope, the cardinals, nor anyone else in the catholic pecking order. Their crime with respect to it is the crime of noninterference.

There real crime is that of interfering in the FIRST place and then, having interfered, not intervening in any HUMANITARIAN fashion, but simply urging people to have more children that neither the Planet nor its finite resources can support. This is clearly irresponsible. Can anyone explain the scientific concept of sin especially when this sexual "sin" is INDUCED deliberately in order to induce guilt so that one is given the impression, especially with impressionable children that only the pope can forgive you?

__________________________________________________ ______________________________


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Constituting the Jews as a satan.
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You are unclear on what 'constituting the Jews as satan' MEANS. Do you mean the Catholic church considered them as satan in physical form and set out to exterminate them? That certainly never happened, except perhaps a fair bit of scapegoating in the middle ages.

No, in FACT they were deliberately constituted AS satan and Synagogues were placed behind Catholic churches following the "Get thee behind me satan" of religious nonsense. Again Nothing to do with running a planet Logigally Aand Logistically.

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Then you have read nothing of the Warsaw Ghetto where the rich, including rich Jews who were given a document as having been of beneficial aid to the State organised the Military to exterminate the poor because they had TOO MANY children and were taking over everything as a Zionist cause because the Catholic Church wanted to force them to become Christians rather than play the role of Saturdays satan. They did this cheerfully even demonstrating just how much MORE savage they could be. They even invented the Gas, Zyklon B
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And so the ugliness behind the facade is revealed. Yes it is the ugliness of the Catholic church that kills people who will not accept their dogma and global domination, they have very little in the way of conscience evidently.

What you don't maybe REalise is that the Hassidim were ACTUALLY INSTRUCTED to attack blue-eyed blondes because they were thought to be too proud of their good looks. This follows the idea of a Jealous God, a jealous pope and jealous priests, and jealousy generally. The Egyptians were TOLD what would happen if they left the power in the hands of the priests.

Do you really think that Fritz Haber would have created Zyklon B, if he had known what it would be used for?

He KNEW that it would be used for the extermination of "cockroaches" being anyone who did not follow the Catholic church's dogma.

Do you really think that he happily contributed to the Nazi extermination effort, given he was expelled from Germany in 1934?

I suggest that GOOD people expelled him from Germany because they already suspected what the Hassidim were up to some stupidity with their "Warrior" Polish pope.

Do you really think that rich Jews happily damned their own people? Was anyone in the Nazi administration a jew?

Yes, in fact many were. The honest NON-Roman Catholic people wanted to remove Catholic religion because of its inherent hypocrisy and stupidity in creating a Heaven and hell scenario with a satan, plus the fact that Catholicism has produced a large number of infamous criminals in the Mafia together with Jews such as Bugsy Segal (who founded Las Vegas and promoted gambling, prostitution, protection rackets and all the rest of the crime associated with Catholic "religious" groups.) and the Purple Gang. Religion is NOT suppposed to be run by gangsters, or mafia's. None of this follows the Puritan Protestant tradition of the founding Fathers of America. Indeed ALL mafia criminal activity can be seen as Anti-American Activity. It can now CLEARLY be seen that it IS the Catholic influence which is troublesome, mischevious, Machiavellian and a general pestilence.

I can easily imagine the Nazis being more than willing to seize Jewish assets and use them for their own ends but that can hardly be blamed on the Jews! Does the mere fact of their Jewishness make them evil? Is there ANYTHING they have done to merit the genocide of an entire cultural group consisting of millions of independent human beings? There is no justifaction for that. Nor did they feed themselves into the Nazi ovens and gas chambers.

There were "trustees" appointed amongst the Jewish people who worked with the church sponsored extermination of non-Catholics who were even MORE savage in the extermination of their OWN people. This is surely the MOST SHAMEFUL EPISODE of man's history.

As I have REPEATEDLY said, I agree 100% with Einstein and Steven Weinberg. The Jewish people should have had their OWN country LONG AGO instead of being FORCED to take part in this religious FARCE and left to fight for their "hole" in the hole-i-land. This is OBSCENE. It is INJUSTICE on the GRAND SCALE. They would much better g-)have looked after their own poor instead of being used in this criminal fashion by a master of organised crime ... Rome.

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Then you know very little to nothing. This is NOT Gentle Jesus this is foul play.
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You assert, you assert, but you demonstrate nothing. This discussion on the merits and drawbacks of world control has devolved into an attempt to blame the catholic church for all the evils in this world. War, religion, atrocity, and everything you place squarely on their shoulders has been around a lot longer than catholicism has, or christianity has, or even judaism has. Why so much hate directed at a symptom?

See above.

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You do not speak of love here.
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Neither were you. And like it or not, reproduction can happen without love, though I certainly do not advocate such a thing. I am simply speaking of facts.

You answer your own comment. REproduction should NOT happen without LOVE. What do celibate and jealous priests know of love between a man and a woman? Nothing.

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Napoleon was a Holy Roman Emperor.
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Napoleon!? I wasn't talking about Napoleon! You did in the same paragraph. Alexander the Great is too far back in time and NOT RE-Levenat to MODERN methods such as those advocated by Napoleon, with His Code Civil and �tat Civil.

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If people had stuck to the single child model then there would be NO need for all of this killing. We are NOW SUPPOSED to be CIVILISED. We were MORE Civilised before the industrial revolution. But it still did not stop people from having TOO MANY CHILDREN and causing an exponential population explosion and over-developing some areas of the planet whilst others remain almost totally undeveloped. Or is it that this is not obvious to you?
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It is not obvious that we were more civilized before the industrial revolution, no. Disease, sanitation, famine, and, yes, war were present even then. If the only standard by which you define civilization is low population, then a dead planet would certainly be the peak of civilization, no?

The Planet IS dying and it is being killed by too high a level of human activity. A lower level of human activity would be more sustainable for the long-term future and PREVENT people from warring over REsources.

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Because religion, starting with Rasputin, was undermining the workings of the State by allowing VAST quantities of the poor to plead religious poverty. We are so poor because it is good for the soul, YOU must feed OUR children. Cross our palms with silver or we will visit evil upon you. Do you see any science in this at all?
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Rasputin? We were talking about Stalin. Nice dodge.

Not a dodge at all. I don't do dodges. (This is NOT Fagin & the Crafty Dodger from Oliver picking a pocket or two. Note: Christ had no pockets.) Rasputin upset the Tsar of the day. The "religious" poor attacked the Tsar and His troops tried to defend Him.

The Royal Family was massacred and Mother Russia had the worst revolution EVER seen. This was caused by overpopulating a frozen country to a much higher level than Canada.

This was NOT the fault of the Royal Family but the fault of the church led people. Russia banned religion because of the churche's irresponsible influence.

The church was sufficiently stupid as to NOT tell people to have a lesser number of children as it was proving difficult to feed people. The French revolution was the same. Most revolutions are. This is the effect when the church (See: Mother Theresa, now REgarded as a "One Woman Disaster" by the Indian Government) seeks to "Bring down the Mighty" by simply having more babies than anyone can RE-A-SON-ably feed. (See: The Parable of The Loaves and the Fishes.) Revolutionaries are notorious for "destroying the bakeries when there is a shortage of bread.

And once again, you demonstrate no facts at all, you simply assert what you imagine the world to be and expect us all to take your word for it.

Maybe you need to look back over past history in more detail. The American war of Indepenance and the civil war and the Indian Mutiny, Korea, Mau-Mau, the Congo, Vietnam, Cambodia, The Chinese revolution, the Long March and so on. Military societies do not have revolutions. And the peace-time British army set a very good example, overturned by corrupt governments, religion and liberal laissez-faire policies especially regarding immigration. (From the ENTIRE Empire Commonwealth into a small Maritime island community. Folly. Great Britain should have moved its power base to Australia before WWI and controlled its Empire Trading from there, trading freely with people and with the Western Seaboard of Canada/America. It may well have done so had it not been for the Great Lakes and the St. Lawrence & Welland canals. Had Australia been discovered first, and Great Britian moved there, and then discovered America, things would be VERY diffeent now.

I think that you need to travel more to see the poverty of Afghanistan, India, the Phillipines, Brazil, and all other countries under Catholic influence. It was ALL much better under the British Empire & Commonwealth system. After all Britian founded America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, Set up Singapore and Hong-Kong and RE-Gulated half of Africa. What have the Pope and his criminal gangsters, or any number of criminal gangsters and "religious" warriors done? Upset the entire planet and produced endless warring. Destroyed the South American Rain Forest, produced Mexico City with a population of 10 Million, more than ALL of Belgium? produced more Phillipino bar girls, chi-chi boys and low paid poverty than ever before? Bravo.

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Especially for those who stupidly and willfully "religiously" wish to bring down the very state in which they themselves live simply to fulfill fatalistic religious prophesy. Obviously this is not even rational thinking. So they MUST be MAD.
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Non sequitor. I expected an argument, and you give me more frothing ravings against the Catholic church.

Please see the above. You forgot to mention the Rabid Mad-Dog Papacy and their pet Rottweiler.

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The ENTIRE point of constituting the Jews as satan was to throw people to satan in this twisted fools red and black religious mad-cap madness.
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I know all those words, but that sentence makes no sense.

Hardly surprising from this senseless religion. The Red is the red of the Cardinals, the Black is the black of satan.

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Corona688:
You are preaching to people who do not agree with you on this key assumption. The Bible, Old Testament or New, is just another book. Quoting it will not make you look special. Prove your points on their own merits, or admit that they have none.

In saying that it is just another Book you amply demonstrate that you know absolutely nothing about religion. The New Testament is SUPPOSED to have superceded the Old Testament by the way. Again, please see above.

Light:
Why call any priest or rabbi your father, when it is clear that they are not?
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I do not. And since this also has absolutely nothing to do with the argument at hand, I will mark this as another dodge.

So why should anyone else call them father then? Especially when they are KNOWN to practise evil. Evil is a NON-Scientific principle you will agree. Murder is a crime too, ESPECIALLY religious murder. See: Vatican bankers found hanging under bridges between the high and low water marks. There IS a special significance to this form of killing.

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Pure SCIENCE. However I agree with your point. "Hello Darkness My Old Friend", and the "Sound of silence" are worthless attributes.
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In saying that God cannot demonstrate anything to anyone with pure science, you have just torpedoed the entire foundation of your argument, that being the "scientific" foundation of god in ancient egypt. You are the weakest link. Goodbye.

It was YOU who said that God could not demonstrate anything to anyone with pure SILENCE. I, on the other hand, say that God CAN demonstrate EVERYTHING to people with SCIENCE, with NO need for all of the meaningless mumbo-jumbo of religion and all of its trappings and double-dealing murders.

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He just does not say anything. Silent and deadly.
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This personal threat has been noted as yet another dodge.

What threat is there to the greatest dodger and shirker of REsponsibility of all time this infernal church?

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These were not gods they were deified aspects of spiritual religious working. They got into trouble by NOT being Monotheistic, wishing to be regarded as gods before God The Father Creator, Ptah.
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Unfortunately, the facts don't bear you out on this one. They did worship these gods.

They did NOT worship these "gods" as they were Egyptians they did not have to worship them. All that these deities do is to demonstrate to YOU just how God and what should be YOUR belief system ACTUALLY works in practise.

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Knowing God is not faith, it is Knowing.
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Nothing can be known without evidence, your non-existent God included.

Well YOU had better go and find Him for yourself.

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The typical fatalists answer. It does not mean that it should remain this way.
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Neither do I agree that it should. Yet you still have this fixation on blame, which does not help the problem.

But family planning and TOTAL freedom from religious PERSECUTION would help, would it not? So why does religion keep on persistently and perfidiously INTERFERING? NONE of these people are MY Father. They have NO right over me. I am NOT their dog, and they are NOT my Master. I am My Own Master. I can do whatever pleases ME to do within RE-A-SON.

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Which is why State and Church need to have a common policy and not be divorced. They should both agree to a single child policy. (See: First Born.)
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Yet again you sabotage your own argument, that being there should be NO church.

So as there should be NO priests and NO rabbis we can scrap the entire church system. Thank you. I'll make a start right away. I suggest you do the same. These are only interfering parasites anyway.

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Actually, the church didn't burn anyone in the Holocaust either. I'll grant that they certainly didn't interfere when it happened but they were not the driving force.

They would hardly interfere when they had set it up with the state to remove those they considered to be too poor and undesirable would they? Especially when they realised their mistake in constituting an undesirable Saturday satan.

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The church stood by and did nothing. The driving force was plain old xenophobia, the same thing we've had since before the dawn of civillization - the nazis weren't just burning Jewish people, they also got rid of their mentally infirm, their crippled, their resident Gypsies, Polish, and on, and on, and on. Raw hate of everyone but themselves.

Were all of these Religious Criminals (RC) stealing from them, taking over ther country and ruining it by subcverting it from the inside with Zionism? Again they should have had their OWN country then NOT one JOT of this could ever have happened. Again, Einstein was right and the Roman Catholic church was WRONG! But then Einstein was a genius and the pope is an evil dummy peasant.

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Sweet William of Orange? As anti-catholic as anyone could be.
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I just thought that webcomic was funny. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
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If EVERYONE were to led properly and carefully REgulated then there would be NO need for killing in ONE Global Military Organisation, would there!
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Once the enemy's all dead, we won't need to kill anyone any more! Where have I heard that before.

If not TO MANY PEOPLE are born at any given time then the ENTIRE GLOBE ... CAN ... be RE-Gulated properly without ANY killing. PROPER use can be made of people instead of them Martyring themselves for any phony religious "cause".

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Better than some madman playing the Organ surely. What the hell good has that ever done anyone?
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Surely you're not claiming the world is being led by the Catholic church anymore. That hasn't been the case for ages.

The majority of the World's population is regarded as being Catholic by the Catholic church whether you or anyone else realises it or not. All you have to do for this to be the case is to have lots more babies. They even say that they can get 80 Billion MORE people onto the planet but then they forgot that most of it is made up of Oceans and Seas and that a lot more is uninhabitable. (They only calculated the surface area of the global sphere. Probably too lazy to do it properly. (Yes, really, 80 BILLION more babies. Bloody Crazy, as in BC.)

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So you agree that the instant that humans have the Wisdom to give up their religion they could REgulate ther numbers and start being nice to each other instead of being bigited sectarian hypocrits. Thank you.
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I think it is possible. I also don't think everyone IS a bigoted sectarian hypocrite. Nor do I think the catholic church has any real power anymore. You insist on looking at things in a black and white fashion.

So why all of these sectarian (dis-)organisations when there is only ONE Scientific Actual Belief possible?

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So what IS the truth which you seek? Is it the Truth of Goodness? It certainly cannot be the false "truth" of evil. So beware false "gods" is good advise.
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As far as anyone can tell, all gods are false, so your advice is hardly needed. And sooner or later, one has to stop searching for truth, and start searching for lunch. At that note, I shall bring this effort to a close. You have shot yourself in the foot many, many times and alienated yourself from anyone who might have helped you in your latest diatribe, my effort is no longer needed. Good day.

A pitiful attempt at compiling a rational and formal reply, lacking in courteous REspect. All gods ARE false simply because there is only ONE SUPREME BEING. This is a matter of Logic, as well as being a matter of fact, and not religion.

You must make MORE effort to get it ... RIGHT.

Good afternoon to you.

Light

I am unsubscribing from this thread as I have said ALL that needs to be said.

Everyone knows of the conspiracy and have done so for a long time.

Now try to do it without conspiracy, as conspiracy is a crime.

andy_d

You still haven't addressed my question. I'd genuinely like to hear your answer.