RJS

The "rules" were either yes or no answer. I choose no, and expect to have to do some explaining later. I'll start by saying that a perfect God wouldn't do something that had an unintended outcome. It would be intentional.

uh oh - now Im in trouble

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]</p>

RJS

Thank you, I knew this. I was just being a little playful in return for his comments, which totally disregarded the obvious sarcasm in my statement of "slightly".

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]</p>

ex-preacher

Headline: Christian rates his imaginary God "slightly" above Hitler.

Actually this so-called God would have to rank a little lower since he would have known the outcome of the Holocaust and could have prevented it at any point, if he really existed and had the powers you suppose. But apprently it is your belief that his supposed will was that the slaughter continue. If there were such a God, maybe he did it so that those Jews could fill his own ovens in hell.

[edited for RJS's benefit]

ex-preacher

Personally, I don't consider the Holocaust a subject to be playful about. Why don't you explain God's refusal to stop it.

RJS

So when I said "slightly", you took that literally? If you didnt, then you started this playfulness surrounding the holocaust!

ex-preacher

Actually, if you meant "slightly" as a joke then you are the one who is joking about a very serious matter.

Please answer the question. Why didn't your imaginary God stop the Holocaust?

RJS

With respect to the holocaust - I will copy what I have said already in this thread.

"I do believe that God has a will (which I do not have knowledge of) and he may choose to control things within our existence. He may choose to let others play out without direct intervention."

in other words, I cant answer your question.

RJS

Lets see - a statement by me suggesting I put infinitely more trust in God than Hilter, or

a Fake News Headline making fun of a Christian's view of the holocaust.

Which is the one that is really "joking"?

Consider this micro-argument dropped.

Hobbs

It's probably one of those things you'll just have to find out for yourself. Maybe someday you'll be fortunate enough to find out.

Having been at a point where I believed I was where you believe you are now, I think I can accurately say that I know precisely what you mean here. It was, in any case, something I believed. And if I could be so bold, I would suggest that people who have not gotten beyond their "God" have what seems to them to be a deep, meaningful joy of life, but which, to one who has gotten beyond it, appears in retrospect to be quite shallow.

free12thinker

So now you are measuring our joy for us. Or foretelling our joy, or reading our emotional minds. I'm here to tell you I know joy without god and you can refute it as much as you like. It's like me refuting whether or not you "really" believe in god. I can't refute people's sense of belief or livelihood, I can only question reasons for such belief.

But anyway. If you are going to claim that god gives us free will, only a few posts after you claim that we pay for our sins, I am lost, lost, lost. How do you claim that god gives us free will to do what we want, yet, if what we want isn't what he wants--than we're toast. Is that really free will to your best estimate?