Devilnaut

But Goliath..


What do you really think when it comes to concepts of God (speaking of ones with which you've been presented)? You certainly don't think that they exist. But do you think that they don't exist? If you had to pick one, which would it be? It would clearly be that you don't think they exist. But how could I have come to this conclusion about your beliefs, when you're so adamant about not holding this position?

The answer is that from non-belief in a proposition, it follows that one believes the given proposition to be false, at least on some level. Maybe not with much veracity, but nevertheless you believe that no Gods exist. If you don't believe that no Gods exist, I don't see how you can possibly make the statement "I don't believe in Gods".

Jobar said:
Must you believe that God is impossible to be a strong atheist? Wouldn't all that is necessary be that you deemed the probability for God's existence to be below 50%?

[ July 03, 2002: Message edited by: Devilnaut ]</p>

Shadowy Man

Most people I've encountered don't understand the semantic difference between "I believe no gods exist" and "I don't believe gods exist." This lack of understanding is very common, I think. I believe that atheists are used to having to think intellectually and pay close attention to the details of semantics so are more capable of quickly discerning subtleties of language.

If you come up with a good way of indicating the difference to the "common man" let me know.

Goliath

Devilnaut,

What is there to say? All of them are supernatural beings, and I do not believe that a single one of them exists.

Correct.

No.

I do not have to pick one. I choose neither.

Strawman!

You have come to a false conclusion about my beliefs. Here is a complete and total list of beliefs that I hold regarding the supernatural:

Nothing.

I do not believe that any god exists. I do not believe that no gods exist. You are therefore demonstrably wrong.

Again, you are completely, absolutely, 100% incorrect about this (see above).

Simple, I just send a command from my brain to my vocal cords, and.....

Seriously, though, just because I've heard of X doesn't mean that I must either believe that X exists or believe that X doesn't exist. In fact, that is a false dilemma (proof given above).

Sincerely,

Goliath

Devilnaut

Devilnaut:
Goliath:
Really? Would you agree that it is impossible to hold two conflicting beliefs? Say, it is impossible to both believe that God does exist, and that God does not exist? Do you think my saying "Well I both believe that God exists AND that God doesn't exist" demonstrates that this statement is false? I don't.

I think that belief (in this case) is binary. Either you believe that God exists, or you believe the opposite. There is no such thing as "believing neither", in my ever so humble opinion. I don't think that you can possibly say that you don't believe in Gods, without on some level actively believing that they do not exist. The only exception to this that I can see, is if you perceive the evidence for and against a given proposition to be exactly equal.

Goliath:
I don't really think that your saying so constitutes proof. You may say that you hold these beliefs, but I don't really believe you One more question: Do you think that the evidence for and against the existence of God is exactly equal?

[ July 03, 2002: Message edited by: Devilnaut ]</p>

Typhon

No surprise perhaps devil, but I'm with Goliath on this one.

I have no belief in god or gods. This is what above all else and by definition makes me an atheist.

I do indeed have disbelief in some specific, well defined gods, such as Yahweh, Zeus, Anu, Osiris, Odin, etc.. In this case it could be said that I believe that god X does not exist. Provided that god is of the type I feel are well defined to say that based upon the evidence and application of logic, I have set its existence at a high, high degree of improbability, high enough to the point that I feel comfortable saying that I believe they do not exist.

However, I absolutely do not believe that no gods exist.

.T.

Goliath

Devilnaut,

Well, it is certainly not impossible, but it does point to an inconsistency in the person holding said beliefs.

That would seem to be impossible.

I have absolutely no idea what your point is. I have not claimed to believe that a god both does and does not exist. I merely do not believe that any gods exist.

In some sense, yes, and in some sense, no. Belief is binary with respect to a particular person holding a fixed belief (ie you either believe that a god exists or you do not believe that any gods exist). However, to say that you must either believe that X exists or believe that X does not exist forces a false dilemma. Since I lack god belief, I am a living representative of a third option: lack of belief that X exists.

False dilemma (see above).

In fact there is. Again, here is a complete list of things that I believe regarding the supernatural:

Nothing.

Get it? I hold NO BELIEFS WHATSOEVER. Why do you seem to intentionally not comprehend this?

You are demonstrably wrong, as I (along with every other weak atheist on the planet) serve as a counterexample.

I haven't said that I hold beliefs, I have said that I hold NO BELIEFS. Why do you not grasp the difference?

Furthermore, what would you have me do to show you that I have no beliefs regarding anything supernatural?

I have absolutely no idea, and furthermore, I don't care. Evidence for supernatural claims is irrelevant.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Synaesthesia

luvluv:
As a matter of fact luvluv, so do most of us strong, radical, hard core, damned to hell atheists.

I mean, if God came down in all of his terribly glory, many strong atheists would be kissing ass faster than most christians. Don't you doubt it.

St. Robert

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." - Jesus Christ (Matthew 7:21)

Here, Jesus is clearly warning against waiting to receive salvation. God's great mercy is displayed with each breath that the atheist takes as he/she lives outside of the security of God's grace.

[ July 07, 2002: Message edited by: St. Robert ]

[ July 07, 2002: Message edited by: St. Robert ]</p>

luvluv

How can I make this my signature?