I ate Pascal's Wafer

For some reason I was thinking about this question (Can God make a rock so big that even he can't lift it) today. The standard theistic answer seems to be that God cannot do that which is logically impossible, such as making a square circle. At first look, it seems to be a reasonable answer. Afterall, how can we expect an omnimax entity to do that which is literally impossible?

Of course this basically forces us to admit that God is controlled by logical principles. Basically, God could not have 'invented' logic because God is bound by the rules of logic. However, many theists I have talked with do not want to admit this. In other discussions, they argue that God is not bound by the laws of science or logic because God is above these laws--in effect, God created these laws.

I don't think both of these can be true at the same time. If God cannot do the logically impossible, then God is bound by the rules of logic. If God is bound by the rules of logic, then God cannot be above the laws of logic--else he could simply bend the rules in order to allow him to do the logically impossible. However, if God is really above the laws of logic, then God can bend the rules to allow him to do the logically impossible. If God can bend the rules to allow him to do the logically impossible, then God is able to do the logically impossible. This would mean that the theistic defense is merely a copout because God really can do that which is logically impossible.

Anyway, these are just my random thoughts for the day. Am I missing something, or is this about right? What would some plausible theistic responses to this be?

-Nick

Mullibok

I think theists should just say that God is indeed constrained by logic and move on. Would that really weaken their beliefs so much?

Rational BAC

Can an unstoppable object move an immoveable one? How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Does God really give a crap about understanding our infantile logic done by our pea-brains?

Probably not.

I ate Pascal's Wafer

Not at all, and I think they should just admit this and move on too.

I wonder why they need to worship an omnimax entity anyway? Their life would be much easier if they just worshipped a really smart, really powerful entity rather than an omniscient, omnipotent entity. For example, the problem of evil isn't as bad a problem if God is not omniscient/omnipotent. The free will defense just might be plausible if God didn't know everything, for example.

Ah well...

-Nick

Magic Primate

I think they want to hold onto the 'above logic and science' attribute because that's the only way he could be truly transcendent and infinite. Importantly it also gives them a get-out clause when they are faced with logical contradictions and lack of evidence.

Good points by the way, Wafer Eater.

Rational BAC

I don't think that God has to know everything. For example it is quite possible that God could not know the future because the laws of physics that He created will not allow it. God could still be a very good guesser about the future, (a much better guesser than you or I) simply because of His vast intelligence and multiple senses.

Or it could be that God can know the future if he wants to but chooses not to. Or chooses to do so occasionally if He feels like it. Aint it great to be God. Can do any damned thing You please.

Take away God knowing for certain the future and you take away all those silly problems with pre-destination and free will which takes up so much very silly space on this forum.

I ate Pascal's Wafer

This is true, but then they have to deal with God's ability to do the logically impossible. If God is above 'above logic and science', then God should be able to make square circles and rocks so big that he can't lift them. This would soon become a big problem for the theist because they would end up backing themselves into an indefensible position.

I guess the question here is why do they feel the need to cling to the idea that God is transcendent and infinite?

Quote:

Good points by the way, Wafer Eater.

Heh, thanks.

-Nick

I ate Pascal's Wafer

I don't think God has to know everything either. Why should we expect God to be omniscient? Would God be any less great if he was just really smart rather than all knowing? He would certainly be smarter than any of us. So why, then, does God need to be omniscient? Is it because some theists feel insecure?

But, regardless of what I think, some theists still cling to the idea that God really is omniscient. Since they feel the need to do this, I feel the need to make them justify their belief, should they ever feel another need to debate with me.

I think this is very well possible, but it depends on God being really smart (as opposed to omniscient). This gets back to some theists being unwilling to admit this. Ah well...

Yup. If God is not omniscient, then life for the theist just got a hell of a lot easier. It's easy to justify free will or refute predestination if God is not all knowing. Too bad the very people who desperately want to justify those arguments are unwilling to admit the one thing that would make their arguments justifiable.

-Nick

ComestibleVenom

But such gods are still bad theories, and really incapable of eludicating the mysteries of existence. When crushing walnuts, a sledgehammer is as good as a mountain.

Of course, most theists won't have the sophistication to immediately move past this omnimax conception. Atheists who form their position via debate with such theists will be looked down upon the 'sophisticated' theists who have shrunk the target insufficiently to prevent it from collapsing upon it's own lack of coherence, substance.

Biff the unclean

That's something we might never know seeing our complete lack of sophisticated theists to debate with on these boards