Sabine Grant

Hi Nogo.....I used the word " hope" as the closest I could identify with.

I think I did explain what you call" the something you posess that tells you that God exists" as a probability based on the fact that we define what is possible on the present reality as we know it. Unless you of course think that we have discovered all the realities contained within the Universe.

I think the degrees of theistic faiths are based on how the believer reacts to life circumstances. I would consider a person to have strong faith if he deals with a difficult situation while displaying serenity.

Evidence again is based on reality as we know it.

Faith is the ability to believe what defies reason. Your reason demands evidence of the existence of a god. Mine dwells not on evidence but on the probability that the Universe was put in motion by a supreme being.

The mental process is a personal choice to consider other alternatives than the oblivion and absence of purpose to existence. You have no need to consider an alternative. I do.

livius drusus

Sabine -

Are you claiming to have come to an entirely rational acceptance of the xian faith after a diligent application of critical thinking? If not, I'm sure how your point about faith, hope and speculation about a Divine Mover is related to the definition of Freethinker.

Sabine Grant

No Livius... I made it clear that I prefer that alternative over the concept of the oblivion and the absence of purpose to human existence. However, that alternative cannot be evaluated by anyone as my not having the ability to direct my own thoughts. Never have I claimed to be a Freethinker. But the argument at hand here seems to be leaning to whether or not a theist is capable of reasoning.

schu

I don't think any xian can rationally call themselves a Freethinker. In my view to accept the xian god is to abdicate your reason. The xian bible is all that is needed to refute the xian god. It cannot exist as described. I know the marshmallow/wishy/washy/salad bar type xians just ignore the contradictions, but the only way that can be described as freethinking is if that is defined as free from thinking. Nope, if Freethinking is critical thinking, no xian can qualify.

Starboy

That is the problem with the word dogma, it has a range of meaning, going from

to

It can go from currenty well accepted knowledge to what is often referred to as religious dogma. In any case, call it what you want, if it is not held freely it is not IMO "freethinking".

Starboy

livius drusus

That's the argument you and Gemma are leaning towards, not the one covered in the OP or subsequent posts, all of which refer specifically to the definition of Freethinker and its critical thought requirement, not to a discussion of whether theists are capable of a more general kind of reasoning.

Starboy

More to the point, is a theist capabable of reasoning when it comes to their religion. As has been pointed out the answer is no. The reason is simple, there would be no need for "faith" or "hope" if there were good reason.

Starboy

schu

To paraphrase the late, great Robert G. Ingersoll: "Xians mistake freedom for the right to examine their chains" I sometimes misquote it as: "Xians mistake freedom for the right to rattle their chains."

Radorth

The Bible defines faith as "the evidence of things not seen" such as, for example what Washington "saw" which made him remark that he could see the hand of God working throughout the war. He and Franklin saw one coincidence too many to be classical deists, and they said so. Therefore faith is not "wishing" anything. It is the result of evidence and is rational in that sense.

Rad

Radorth

I suspect I'm free of your sins Schu, and I have no desire anywhere in me to go back to them. As long as they control you, I will have more worthwhile choices than you do. Christianity as Chrrist preached it produces only freedom in the end.

Rad