Albert Cipriani

Dear John,
You confuse the process for the product when you say: The fact that us fools must use a subjective process to arrive at our belief in what is a lower case “truth” that is only relatively true does not mean that the “Truth” is lower case or is relativistic.

There is only one set of religious beliefs that can collectively be called absolute capital “T” Truth. All religions, even Satanism, share some part of this Truth. The Catholic Church alone has it all. I’d hope and expect Southern Baptists and Hindus to assert the same about their religions. If they do not, then they are guilty of the heresy of indifferentism.

Allow me to illustrate. When you’re lost in the forest, there is only one right direction and an infinite number of wrong directions. The one right direction is the absolute Truth of Catholicism. The many wrong directions are the many other religions that have some chance of getting you more or less in the right direction.

The agnostics and atheists, on the other butt cheeks, are as lost as the rest of us, but more pitiful than the rest of us in that they are resting their butts around the campfire’s dying embers. They refuse to take a step in ANY direction and thus ensure the permanence of their lost status.

Atheists and agnostics draw warmth from their doubts and console themselves with the cold fact that they are not making fools of themselves hiking off in the wrong direction after the phantom of hope. They never realize that in the process of hiking they would generate enough warmth to banish the need for a campfire of consolations, and that by following a doubtful path the wrong way they would nevertheless grow more hopeful and end up seeing more of the truth and be more truly alive than by persevering in the hobble gobble of their logical consistencies – which turns out to be about as consistent as a bowl of cold porridge. – Sincerely, Albert the Traditional Catholic

John Page

Albert:

Do you or do you not consider your religion to be true?

You do believe some strange things, Albert.

Cheers, John

Albert Cipriani

John,
Sure I consider my religion true. Don't you consider your atheism true? What's your point?

My point is that all religious beliefs as all other beliefs are necessarily subjective. But just because we arrive at what we consider to be the truth through subjective means does not mean that that truth is subjective. How is this strange? -- Albert the Traditional Catholic

Just_An_Atheist

What do you mean by "hanging" around the fire "consoleing themselves" with "their doubts"? Do you mean that atheists disbelieve in God, and refuse to believe in anything? Because it seems to me that that is clearly false. For instance, many atheists are also naturalists, which would seem to constitute a world view. Furthermore, some agnostics and athiests are humanists, which would seem to constitute a genuine trudge into the "forest".

Albert Cipriani

Just an Atheist,
I mean that the western intellectual tradition for at least the last couple hundred years has prided itself upon figuring out ways to prove that it can't know anything.

Doubt has been made into a Deity. And there is comfort in doubting, for it frees us from acting. It's the modern excuse for not daring to believe in God. -- Sincerely, Albert the Traditional Catholic

wordsmyth

I mean that the western theological tradition for at least the last couple thousand years has prided itself on figuring out ways to believe anything that it can't prove.

Fear has been made into a Deity. And there is comfort in believing, for it frees us from thinking. It's the modern excuse for daring not to believe in God(s). -- Sincerely, Wordsmyth the Traditional Atheist

John Page

As opposed to religious tradition which has spent thousands of years figuring out that it knows something it doesn't?

John Page

This is where we diverge. Some beliefs can be shown to have a basis in fact through repeatable, reliable experimentation. Through this process (that reduces the element of subjectivity) a belief can be elevated through the ranks of hypothesis to probability and fact.

Cheers, John

Wyz_sub10

Speak for yourself, Albert. Is this your way of telling us that you believe because you feel the need to explore? That risk builds character?

If so, good on you. But I do not doubt the existence of god because I lack the courage. In our society it takes more courage to remain true to your beliefs than to be bullied into your "dare".

Albert Cipriani

Mod Note: I accidentally edited Albert's post while replying to it. What follows is what was preserved in quoting the original. Some of the post was deleted. My sincere apologies. -Wyz_sub10

Dear Wyz,
Holding an unpopular opinion takes sociological courage, not intellectual courage.

For example, it’s not intellectually difficult to believe that Jews are not an inferior race. But it was sociologically difficult to hold that belief in Nazi Germany.

You confuse the virtue of perseverance or the vice of stubbornness for courage.

For example, if I refuse to care if my mountain climbing kills me or if my belief in God is vain, I am physically and intellectually courageous. On the other hand, if you care too much about not being proved wrong, or care too much about not having wasted your precious time praying needlessly to a non-existent deity, then you cannot have enough courage to believe.