beyelzu

If you offer financial inducements and convincing words to try to get someone to sleep with you, I dont think it is immoral. Masturbating to porn is not immoral either with the exception of kiddie porn and real rape things of that nature. The porn star is a consenting adult who chooses to be there, so I dont think its immoral to watch or masturbate to it.

Viti

Since you have no personal experience with porn actresses or in the adult entertainment industry then you are arguing against my stupidity from your own ignorance and bigotry.

I can't tell you how many men assumed I was some sort of damaged goods waiting for a knight in shining armor to save me from myself when I was dancing. It simply never occured to them that someone may be happy, well adjusted, educated AND choose to take their clothes off.

It is condescending and sexist to pile your uninformed stereotypes on another person. By assuming this woman is incapable of making her own choices you degarade her...not the industry.

Michaelson

<insulte deleted>My girlfriend started reading some of this board the other night, and she said that what really gets her is the way everyone vies for legitimacy. She said it's the type of board where she'd feel compelled to make up a sob story just so she could shut people down... Nail on the head!

Congratulations for having been a pole dancer and remaining a well adjusted human being. That's great for you, seriously. You may even have some added insights into the discussion. What you don't have is a mandate to tell anyone who hasn't done a bit of lapdancing that they don't know what they're talking about.

Particularly given the discussion is about PORN for god's sake!

Your argument makes no logical sense. I'm not saying that everyone in the industry needs to be saved by a knight in shining armour. You quite likely didn't. That doesn't prove that some girls might need exactly that, though. luvluv clearly has relatively little experience and knowledge when it comes to the industry he's critiquing. But your experiences are isolated as well. True, I don't know how isolated, but why is your view to be treasured so highly over Belladonna's, considering you're both talking from your own experience?

I would bet my life on the fact that there are some girls in porn who are being abused, but are simply too weak to leave. I have no idea how many, I'll openly admit that, but to argue that my belief is sexist and condescending is simply ludicrous. One experience does not prove a universal rule.

Viti

I don't suppose it occured to you or your girlfriend that this girl could have made up a sob story just to be interviewed by Diane Sawyer thus GUARANTEEING people know her name and maybe increasing sales of her movies?

As I have stated a million times...yes, I believe there are emotionally fucked up people in the porn industry. There are emotionally fucked up people in any industry from every walk of life...that doesn't remove their autonomy.

christ-on-a-stick

Michaelson -
I strongly suggest you read the "Forum Rules & Policies" for a little refresher course.
But anyway...
I would consider my experience, observations and interactions with many, many other women (and men) in the porn industry "extensive" as opposed to "isolated" (10 years altogether and running the gamut from hardcore way-back-when to what I do mostly now, although I still have a lot of contact with the hardcore factions through association and indirect contact (see some of my earlier posts for details). On that note, I would welcome any *specific* questions you may have for me if you feel that my experience qualifies. I'm not sure if you are missing that *nobody* here has said that a) no-one in the porn industry is or has been abused or exploited or b) no one has been hurt by the porn industry. What luvluv seems to be arguing is that the porn industry is INHERENTLY immoral and/or harmful.


Why on earth would she want to do that?

I don't know why the vortex of this discussion keeps sucking me back in!!! Oh well...

Michaelson

In response to LadyShea:

You might be right. I wouldn't have a clue if Belladona's case is legit or not, I live in Australia, had never heard of her before, and I've never seen or heard of Primetime or Dianne Sawyer either. It'd have to have been a remarkebly bad doco for me to have found it a less authoritative source of info than her website, but that's a moot point. There of course a possibility that she thought that getting the word out that she was being abused on set would have men rushing to see it themselves.

Discounting Belladonna's story, though, it's not hard to find others like it. Pick up Catherine MacKinnon's Only Words and read the first chapter. I think she's a nutcase, basically the radical feminist equivalent of Jerry Falwell (he's the mad fundy, right?). But she extensively footnotes various cases of documented abuse in the porn industry. She also makes out as though your local video store has a section for Snuff, right between Education and Children, but none-the-less she illustrates many cases of women being reduced to emotional wrecks through coercion and abuse in the porn industry.

Now sure, this might not be widespread amongst the big distributers, I wouldn't know. But another thing that has irked me about this thread is that there seems to be total denial that there is an illegitimate industry as well. How tight are controls over small time internet porn companies? When you look at pictures online at some dodgy website with blue font on a black background, with a list down the bottom of the page 8 times the length of the page propper with keywords like "anal, gangbang, teens...", how safe is it to assume that I'm not going to be getting off to some poor girl who thought she was getting into bikini modelling, and ended up doing a gangbang after less than a week? Someone who said yes, but only because of the coercive tactics of some producer who realised that she was emotionally unstable, and knows how to get her to do things which are essentially against her will?

That thought, to me, is abhorrent. And I don't doubt that such tactics have been employed.

Linda Lovelace, for example, claims that her experiences in porn were essentially legalised rape. She also claims that her husband at times had a gun to her head, litterally, during filming. However Deep Throat remains readily accessible and hugely popular.

There's a difference between those who are emotionally fucked up and happen to be in a certain industry, and those who are emotionally fucked up because of the industry they're in. Similarly, there is a difference between being emotionally fucked up, and being coerced and abused.

Two questions: 1) Do you deny absolutely that there are women in porn who are only there because they are brow beaten into staying on by their distributers, producers or whatever?

2) In such a case, do you feel that there is anything wrong with sitting in front of a tv screen and getting yourself off to their images?

If you answer no to 1, and yes to 2, then how confident are you when you watch a porno that you're not preying on the misfortune of a weak, emotionally abused teenage girl? I'm not trying to condescend, it is a serious question.

Michaelson

Christ-on-a-stick:

I knew it was going to seem as though I was directly attacking you, but I didn't have you in mind when I made my comments. I always got the impression you were trying to shed light on issues rather than claim to be all-knowing.

I'll certainly take you up on that.

You have described your relationship with your producer (?) as being almost a partnership, haven't you? But your first experiences in the industry were not as enjoyable as they have been since? Do you feel priviledged to have such a good working relationship with your producer? Do you think you're the exception to the rule in that regard?

How many companies have you worked for in your time?

How big is the distributer you work for? Have there been certain distributers that you thought weren't operating above board, and if you did think that, what recourse to action did you have available?

You said that one aspect of the Primetime special that hit home for you was the aspect of deception when it came to luring girls into the business. From bikini modelling to DP in the blink of an eye. How widespread are such tactics in your experience? How did you get into porn?

Would you consider it a fair statement to say that the girl-girl and solo work is 'safer' than boy-girl etc?

... And that'll do me.

As for why my girlfriend said this board would make her consider constructing a sob story to shut people down, she was refering to the number of people here who claim a special perspective which automatically renders everone else opinion obsolete.

The standard of argument here is generally amazingly high (I've never seen anything like it on the net before), but there certainly is a trend here for posters to claim a particular life experience allows them to view an issue with crystal clear clarity. Kind of like the chool kid who argues "Well my dad's a doctor and you're wrong!"

IMHO, at least.

(I talk too much)

christ-on-a-stick

I'll give this a go.

Firstly,
I honestly have *not* gotten this from the thread at all. There is, indeed, an "illegitimate" industry (use of underage performers, physical abuse (nonconsensual) etc.) and many contributors to this thread have expressed that they find this disturbing and would like to see it addressed through tighter legal controls and regulations.

On to your questions:
The term "brow beaten" seems a bit vague, but I do *not* deny that there are women in the industry who get there and/or stay there because they are subject to blatant misrepresentation and subtle manipulation by agents and producers. This is one of my biggest "problems" with the industry - newcomers are often made false promises and outright lies that convince them to do more than they originally intended to do, etc. I would like to see this "cracked down on", although at this point I'm not sure exactly how this can be accomplished any more than I know how to deal with unscrupulous modeling agents who tell 5'5" 130 lb. girls that they can be the next Elle McPherson, take their "portfolio fees" and leave them in the dust, or "acting coaches" who promise their students the world when they can't act their way out of a paper bag, etc. However, I think the beginning of the solution lies in teaching girls/women to be assertive and empowered of their sexuality, which goes *way* back to a myriad of societal problems that could start a whole other thread.
This seems to me to be totally unquantifiable. Multiple scenarios arise; does the person getting off "know" that the performer is in that situation? Is a rough sex scene where it appears the performer is being "slapped around" totally acted or is she really being hurt? Often there is no way to tell. Personally, I am not turned on by that kind of imagery (excluding role-playing type bondage scenes - dom/sub stuff) but for those who are, I'll let them answer. It seems to me that there are too many variables involved to answer this definitely (as to the "immorality" issue) without a lot of clarification.
See above. I am *not* trying to be wishy-washy, I just feel that more clarification and specific definitions are needed to address this further.

As an aside... I will go ahead and get more "personal" here than I previously had intended to but what the hey, I am in that kinda mood.

When I was 17, I started out doing "regular" modeling - nothing big, just some catalog and department-store ad type stuff. When I turned 18, I was able to transition to more "racy" but still non-porn stuff - bikini, lingerie, etc. When I was introduced to the idea of going further, I *was* subtly pressured by a major producer (Jim South of World Modeling, who was the main producer featured and interviewed in the PrimeTime piece). I found his attempts to wheedle me straight into the hardcore stuff (gangbangs, anal etc.) kinda pathetic at best (I am not one to be pressured into anything) but after giving it some thought did agree to start doing boy-girl scenes, one involving multiple partners (although not qualifying as gang-bang) and was constantly pressure to go further and further. I politely declined each time. After a while, and some negative experiences with directors and other actors, I said "hasta la vista baby" and went on to a "normal" college and work life for a few years until returning to the industry in the specialty fetish arena.

Yes, there were/are girls who have the same experience who, for whatever reason, DON'T respond well to the subtle pressure and coercion... for a myriad of reasons I would think, ranging from low self-esteem/inability to assert themselves, personal sexual-abuse issues, drug/alcohol issues that made the $ too tempting... etc. HOWEVER, I cannot see how we can take the issue of personal responsibility out of it and face the fact that the girls who do stay are wholly responsible for their choices (barring forms of coercion such as physical intimidation or violence, which is a whole other story). At the root of it, I believe that the only solution to minimizing this phenomenon is, I said above, teaching girls (from a young age) to a) own their sexuality b) have self-esteem and personal empowerment and assertiveness, etc. To put it another way, I feel that curtailing the kind of abuse you are talking about has to start with changing the way we (as a society) treat sexuality and its healthy expression, especially as it pertains to female sexuality and personal power.

christ-on-a-stick

Oops, Michaelson it looks like we crossposted there, I think I answered some of your questions re: how I got into it but I will re-read your post and answer some of the other ones about my producer, etc.

christ-on-a-stick

Hey and do me a favor (you seem to type faster than me! ) - give me a couple minutes to respond to your other questions to it will flow better.