Jack the Bodiless

Vanderzyden:

Let's backtrack a little.

Posted by Mageth:
Your response:
My summary:

Mageth cites his upbringing as the reason he was a Christian in the first place, and lack of evidence as the reason he is no longer Christian.

Vanderzyzen asks if Mageth's parents were "True Christians"(tm).

And this is relevant because... ????

Vanderzyzen, if it matters at all what sort of Christians Mageth's parents were, then you are confirming the view of atheists that the persistence of Christianity is due to parental brainwashing!

Are you seriously implying that Mageth's loss of faith at the age of 45 was due to faulty parental indoctrination during his childhood?

Devilnaut

Vander:

"After all of this, we still have no answer from you. I will try again:"


I guess he doesn't read your posts. Why bother?

Mageth

Honestly, if my parents wouldn't have been such "real" christians (tm), then it probably wouldn't have taken me as long to shake off the strong theistic memes they passed on to me, and it definitely would be much easier on me now as an atheist. Out of love and respect, I choose not to tell my parents I'm an atheist; they're both in their 80s, and their faith is everything to them. It would crush them, and I fear maybe even kill them, to find out that I no longer believe in their faith and am thus "lost" and in danger of hell.

Vanderzyden

Mageth,

Ah, I see that you did answer the question. To my surprise, it is incredibly short. What was your answer? Here it is:

No.

That is the extent of your answer. So, perhaps your could forgive me for missing it.
This is surprising to me because the question is: "Is it possible that your parents were not followers of Christ, but calling themselves Christians in name only?"

Well, let me try to put your mind at ease, since you think I am on a personal crusade against your parents. I admit readily the following:

Do you see, now? I am asking about possibility.

Tell me, Mageth, if you don't follow Jesus yourself, then how would you know with any certainty at all if someone was following Jesus?

Here's a hint:

Matthew 7:21 -- "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

So, let me ask it again:

Is it possible that some "devout Christians" are really not followers at all?

Please do me the favor of providing justification (i.e. an explanation) for your answer.

Thanks,

Vanderzyden

[ October 08, 2002: Message edited by: Vanderzyden ]</p>

Vanderzyden

Mageth,

On the one hand I can appreciate your position. On the other hand, the faith that we find in the gospels is a reasonable faith: one that needs not be afraid of physical death. It is a faith that recognizes the words of Jesus when he tells it like it is.

Matthew 10:28 -- Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. 30And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

32"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn

" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'

Remember, Mageth, these are not my words. May I encourage you to consider them carefully, in their context?


Vanderzyden

Mageth

Please tell me: What is specifically accusatory in either my tone or the content of my inquiry?

That was well-said by previous (thanks K and Jack). I openly and honestly told you a bit about my long, painful path to atheism and you respond by implying my parents are not "true christians."

After repeated indications that I found that rather insulting, you continue to defend your "inquiry" rather than doing what I would expect of a Christian (actually, of any morally sensitive person): apologize and abandon this path of inquiry.

Devilnaut

Returning now to the subject of this thread, I would like to make a few comments with some questions for christians.


It seems like the consensus among the theists here is that the main obstacle that man must overcome in order to enter heaven, is pride, or ego, or vanity (whichever you prefer; they have similar meanings in this context I think). Now this is all well and good, and if we presuppose the existence of some form of afterlife, it is even fairly plausible (it makes sense that an over-attachment to our material existence might prevent us from becoming "one" with the Great Whatever when we die). However, this seems to create a few problems for many christians, especially those of the fundamentalist / inerrantist variety.

If the core message of christianity is to absolve yourself of your attachment to your "ego", then we can conclude that the bible is a collection of stories meant to deliver this message.

Why does whether these stories are mythical, metaphorical and legendary versus historically accurate tellings of real events matter?

More frankly, what exactly is preventing non-christians (especially ones who are the biblical "ideal human beings", without pride or attachment to material possessions) from entering the kingdom of God?

Could the bible have been an extremely useful tool for humanity thousands of years ago, but have simply become redundant in today's more morally aware and humanistic world? My question to christians is, what exactly does the bible offer besides its 'core-messages' (since I assume we agree that these appreciable traits can be obtained independently of it), that is so important?

Additionally, if there is an answer to my question, do you think that the existence of something seemingly even more important (for entrance to heaven) than the core-message of the bible would seem to undermine this message?

[ October 08, 2002: Message edited by: Devilnaut ]</p>

Mageth

Tell me, Mageth, if you don't follow Jesus yourself, then how would you know with any certainty at all if someone was following Jesus?

'Cause the bible tells me so.

“They shall know we are Christians by our Love” John 13:35.

Or from KJV:

Jhn 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

I've witnessed and experienced that love from my parents, so according to the Bible I (one of the "all men") should be able to distinguish them as Jesus's disciples, no?

Please do me the favor of providing justification (i.e. an explanation) for your answer.

Justification for my answer "No"? See above, John 13:35.

K

I'm no moderator, but I'll try to steer this discussion back toward the real topic of this thread. Mainly because it makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up everytime Vanderzyden makes implications about Mageth's parents. I know I would be extremely offended.

I always say (yeah, like that means squat), "you can say what you want about me, but don't mess with the people I love."

Anyway, to get back to the real topic of this thread, it seemed to me that the free will defense took a huge shot when coupled with God's supposed knowledge of the future. Any comments?

K

Devilnaut:

It looks like we were both on the same page. You're clearly a much faster typist.