NeoApostate

Nobody in this thread mentioned humans being pro-life but you, Magus. At best that was an ad hominem tu quoque, at worst a red herring.

It's like a kid who gets caught in the cookie jar and reminds his mother that brother/sister was in the cookie jar yesterday to take the focus off themselves.

Valdemar

Why do I need to repeat myself with you, Magus? We aren't talking about humans!! And where in this thread has anyone said that people are pro-life by bombing women and children? Talk about a strawman!

You have it backwards, Magus. I know that your god doesn't exist on the same basis as you know that other gods don't exist: you are waiting for them to prove it to YOU. [removed]

Magus55

You're right, we aren't talking about humans. But why are we discussing the issue with God, without balancing it by the hypocrisy that humans do it too, and have no justifiable reason to do so? God, being completely sovereign, and creating life itself - as well as being perfect has every right to judge humanity as He sees fit, whether we agree with it or not. Humans don't, yet you jump at the alleged attrocities God committed ( which you don't even believe in God or the attrocities, so this argument is beyond stupid), and don't hold the same standards to humanity. If God is evil for killing the humans He created, then humans are even more evil for killing those who they have no right to (and i'm talking all killing - execution, war, etc..)

And again you are contradicting yourself, and looking rather silly. First you argue God is evil because a book says He killed people, and then you spout your arrogance that God doesn't actually exist, so the argument about God killing is moot. Make up your mind. Either God exists and is evil for killing people, or God doesn't exist, and arguing over His apparent evilness in the OT is about as relevant as Santa Clause giving bad kids coal for Christmas.



And here is where your argument fails. I never claimed to know other gods don't exist. I just don't believe they do because since I believe in the Judeo-Christian God, no other god can exist. I don't know for a fact, and never claim to.

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Queen of Swords

Why should we take the actions of (all) humans into consideration when discussing god? Would you go up to a judge and say, "Hey, have you ever done anything wrong? Yes? Then how dare you sentence criminals?"

Is he alive? If so, did he create himself?

Perfectly brutal and vindictive, perhaps.

Might does not make right.

You don't "believe" in evolution, and yet I've seen you argue against it. Is that also "beyond stupid", Magus?

No "if" about it.

Depending on the motivation, humans may have such a right. Moreover, they are less evil than god because they are not omnipotent, and may not have the power to accomplish their goals by means other than killing.

False dichotomies aside, how about a third option? God doesn't exist, but we assume he does for the purposes of this discussion.

Magus55

Why does a Judge have the right to execute criminals, but God doesn't?


God is living, but not in the biological sense. God is spiritual, so "alive" as you are using the term, isn't an accurate definition.

In 3000 years, I'm quite sure that electrocution and lethal injection will be considered quite barbaric.



True, but being perfect does.



I accept certain aspects of evolution. And evolution is a theory to explain what we see. According to atheists, God is a completely made up fabrication, and the attrocities of the Bible never happened. I don't consider ToE to be a completely made up fabrication. Apples and Oranges.



But I thought God didn't exist? Is Santa Clause evil for giving kids coal?


How else do you end life, but by causing death? And to counteract your argument, humans may not have other means to acheive goals since they aren't omnipotent, but humans also can't ressurect that person they just killed. God may have killed humans, but he also has the power to completely restore life as though it never happened. If a human kills, they have permanently ended that persons life for all eternity. Humans killing sounds more evil, sorry.



Why have the discussion in the first place is my point? If God doesn't exist, this argument is about as rational as discussing the evilness of Santa giving kids coal for Christmas.

TySixtus

Hey! Threats of hell!! Sounds pretty traditional to me...

So God is a hypocrite, too? Freudian slip, there?

So we're his property, and he can kill us whenever he wants to? Oh, but he loves us.


This whole statement is ridiculous. According to your magic book, god did some nasy shit. Now, according to you, all humans are murdering savages just because some of them do nasty shit.

ONE god does bad stuff, it's ONE god's fault.

ONE human does bad stuff, it's ONE human's fault.

That's why you and I don't go to prison when SOMEONE else kills people.

God kills people. He sanctioned the slaughter of millions in the OT. HOW IS HE PRO-LIFE? He demands our worship and obedience. Sounds like he's Pro- God.

Ty

Veovis

Any god worth his (spiritual) salt would have thought of a better alternative: Don't make the criminal in the first place.

Personally, I don't believe any government should have the right to execute criminals.

Queen of Swords

God doesn't have the right to sentence people who have not committed crimes. Moreover, sentencing implies law, trials, due process, etc. rather than simply smiting people, and their children, and their children's children down to the nth generation because god's really pissed that he screwed things up to begin with.

You mean he's dead, in the biological sense?

Poor god. Can he be resurrected from this state, or will he stay dead forever?

And if there are better methods to replace them, perhaps they will be. Likewise, since we now know better than to stone women who are raped, god's misogynistic laws seem somewhat out of place, to say the least.

Being perfectly vicious or being perfectly absurd? You could make a case for the god of the bible being both - neither makes him right, though.

Do you argue about the aspects of evolution that you do not accept? If so, isn't this "beyond stupid"? I mean, come on, Magus. Talking about something that you don't believe in - how does this make sense at all? You tell me.

And you were quite right to do so. Congratulations!

This thread is about god. If you wish to discuss "Santa Clause" and fossil fuels, perhaps you could start another thread devoted to that topic.

Ending life is not the same as drowning, fire, mauling by she-bears and other methods that the biblical god has used.

How does this counteract my argument? You're arguing that it's OK for god to commit evil because he has the capacity to resurrect a person, but how does that make it better? It's like allowing a surgeon to go around lopping off people's hands because he has the skills to sew them back on later.

So, when did he use this power? He killed David's child - when did the child return to life on earth? He slaughtered the Egyptian firstborn - when did they resume their lives with their families? He allowed Job's children to die - did those children come back to life? Oh, they didn't? If your argument is that they went to heaven :

1. There is no biblical evidence that these children went to heaven, as opposed to roasting in hell
2. These children were deprived of a normal life here on earth, with their families, with spouses and children of their own some day.

Therefore, although God may have the power to turn back time and reverse his atrocities, he never actually did so. What a shame.

But if god kills, the person stays dead for about ten minutes and then comes back to life, rather like Snow White being kissed by the prince? Unless you're implying that this "permanent" end, which lasts "for all eternity", means that humans somehow have the power to destroy people's souls as well? Wow.

God's killing is more evil. Not sorry at all to point this out.

What else would you like us to discuss? The weather?

I do hope you say this to other creationists when they discuss aspects of evolutionary theory which you don't think are true.

Angrillori

Hmm, last time humans killed EVERYONE ON EARTH EXCEPT SEVEN PEOPLE????

That qualifies as not-so-pro-life to me. Sure, and if that makes some humans not pro-life then so be it. Your tu quoque (sp.?) fallacy is overwhelming.

God is called pro-life, but kills all the time?
No he's not 'cause you do too!!!!

Defintion of the fallacy.

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism....html#tuquoque

So, will certain someones please stop encouraging Magus to continue in his fallacy distribution tendencies?

Valdemar

Thanks for finally admitting that.

Didn't your mom teach you that two wrongs don't make a right, Magus?

Being perfect means you wouldn't do what your God does in the bible. My mom and dad created life itself (me and my brother), that doesn't give them the right to drown me.

You mean "alledged" atrocites like drowning every man, woman and child on earth? Every little baby human, baby deer, baby elephant drowned by your God, and that's just an "alledged" atrocity.

And that's beyond stupid, Magus. This is an ATHEIST board. What do you think we are discussing here? When I was a kid, I used to argue with my brother about who was stronger: the Hulk or Superman. I always said that the Hulk would pound Superman, because the angrier the Hulk gets, the stronger he gets. My brother would say that Superman could move planets and was clearly superior.

One day, my brother grew tired of the argument and said, "look, they are both just ink on paper. They aren't real and can't beat up anyone!"

I, who was several years younger replied: "Duh, I know that, but it still is fun to figure out who is stronger."

It's all make-believe, Magus. Why do you come here to spoil the fun? Or am I the one spoiling the fun, now? Am I the one pointing out that it's just ink on paper?


Not even that Nazi from Germany in WWII is more evil than a being who drowns everyone on the planet.

I have made up my mind. If God existed, he is evil. Your book clearly points that out. And if Hulk existed, he would smash Superman.

And the Muslim, the Hindu etc. say EXACTLY THE SAME FUCKING THING.

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