Seraphim

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Me believe? I only write what I know to be true.
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My reply : So do you think there is a soul?

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It was your idea that God created ALL humans and I only stated that God had nothing to do with our human-ity which is only a condition of being and therefore an illusion. It is because of this illusion that humans do not really know who they are.
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My reply : So God has nothing to do with Humanity - Acceptable. And WHO is really the humans are, according to your point of view?

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No, not at all. Only Catholics can go to heaven because heaven is religion specific.
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My reply : Good for the Catholics. Nothing else can be said here.

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Mid-night, mid-winter, mid-life (of which Christmas is symbolic).
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My reply : I really don't understand this ...

"... send anybody to either heaven or hell but religion does and if religion is sending people in the wrong direction they will end up in hell and away from peace, health and all the other good things heaven has to offer. "

My reply : So God's enemy is Religion created by Men?

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God did not make heaven nor hell or they could not be religion specific. We color our own heaven while on earth and this same can become our hell if we do not succeed.

Moses was inspired by God, yes, and I don't know about your prophets in particular.
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My reply : I think I understand half of it. And no, I don't have any prophets ... don't see why I need to follow some dead guy to govern my own life.

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I gave you the scripture Rev.21:22 I think it was. "Not temple in the City of God."
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My reply : I thought you said that is Jerusalem and that is why there is no temple there. I think I understand now why Christians and Muslims been killing each other for this piece of dried land - they must have thought that if they own the land, God have no choice but to accept them and their people thus they will be in the winning side.

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Maybe you are a little too aggressive not to be confused. I am not a religionist and not an atheist. I just write as it is.
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My reply : Aggressive? OK ... Maybe I being a bit bull-headed here. OK, try again please.

Plebe

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/steven_conifer/mbd.html" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/steven_conifer/mbd.html</a>

Is there a 'ghost in the machine?' Maybe and maybe not, however, I do KNOW this much, the more one studies brain anatomy and physiology as well as the sciences [astronomy being one]the less one sees the possibility of there being an entity of energy that runs it in what is known as life or the universe as we know it.

Go into the search engine here at infidels.org and key in 'ghosts.' In addition to the above thought provoking link you will find a few others that may be of interest in helping you reach your own conclusions in as rational a way as possible.

Yes, there is much unknown about reality but at least we know certain facts that point to certain truths about it from our meager perspective.

PS: I have not had a complete NDE, but know what it is like to "see white" before my eyes and come close to passing out completely-it happened when I became extremely dehydrated from food poisoning when a retired medic friend of mine found me and rushed me to the hospital. Perhaps somebody should start a thread here asking for some first hand accounts from those who have been declared "DOA" and claim to have had an NDE!

kctan

Originally posted by Seraphim:
Yes, we don't need art but we still do it. Isn't this what I'm trying to show you ? You're just attributing it to something else for the reason that we don't need it but still does it & we don't know why. Wanna know how far whales date back to ?

We knew a hand full of animals having activities which we may pertain to 'art' but that doesn't mean the rest of the animal kingdom don't have. Its just that we don't know what their 'art' is.

One of the theory is due to population constraints.

A favourite theory of whales beaching is something to do with miss navigation. Their way of navigating the sea is disrupted by human activities or climatic anormalies causing them to go astray.

Climatic changes causing hardship to the populace. What kind of hardship do we have in mind here - food, weather & living space as most likely.

Aren't they part of the basics of population constraints ? Too many people resulting in less food (in this case reduction in food to support existing population) plus maybe a shrinking land area (flooding of the red sea shore area) for the existing population meaning running out of living space.

Horticulture not agriculture. (Think both of us are abit off here. )

<a href="http://www.hcs.ohio-state.edu/hcs/TMI/HCS210/HortOrigins/Tech%26MatCult.html" target="_blank">Horticulture</a>

Permanent settlements existed before irrigation.
<a href="http://catal.arch.cam.ac.uk/catal/catal.html" target="_blank">First human settlement</a>

<a href="http://www.bergen.org/AAST/Projects/Engineering_Graphics/_EG2000/sprinkler/historyir.html" target="_blank">History of Irrigation</a>

You don't really need to have irrigation before you can establish a settled farming community.

They are either gatherers or hunters, like us using agriculture as a mean to get food. Only that due to their cranium capacity, they remain as hunters or gatherers.

So you are saying that ants don't have to work for their food therefore they can't be used to compare to humans ?

Ants don't move much ? Ever heard of army ants (fire ants etc...) ? Why don't you read up more on ants before we compare further ?

No, we adapt to our environment. BTW their are still others which form settlements. Bees comes to mind. Grophers, meerkats etc...

How do they follow the same course ? A record of the past perphaps ? Even if some do travel from year to year isn't this a "pass reference" to them ? It still won't explain how monarch butterflies "knows" how to eventually reach their destination over a few generations if its just following a course they knew before.

Still can't explain why only to the moon especially on full moon nights.

Am I changing here ? I just wish to point out that we can't possibily know what constitute as religion to animals & that saying they have none is just an assertion based upon no grounds.

Same as birds building elaborate nests. The question here would of course be, why then ?

[quote]My reply : Correction - 100 birds from the SAME species will find the same attitude when choosing a nest - the nest must be strong, well-built and secured, all this show the bird (male) which built it is hard-working bird which could provide for the chicks when they hatch. Simple survival trick.[quote]

Not so my friend. How can you know if you are not a bird ? Remember we do build bird houses for birds but can you explain why some birds will chose a particular bird house instead of the other even though they are the same ?

Nice. Few people can realise this you know.

I think this is digressing too far from your OP.

Pls do make a review of your POV here so that we could discuss further as to the validity of whether the evolution of humans is natural or out or norm plus the usage of agriculture, art & religion as support to your hypothesis.

Thanks for links.

Amos

No temple in the "New Jerusalem" means that there are no churches in heaven.

himynameisPwn

When I say heaven I refer to Seraphims version of whatever the hell he believes, not the catholic specific version. I disbelieve in the existance of any such place and want to drag dogs there because Seraphim seems to think anything and everything has a soul, so logically they should goto heaven. All Dogs Goto Heaven happens to be a popular movie title.

Primal

Seraphim, this is pseudoscience. <a href="http://www.skepdic.com/nde.html" target="_blank">http://www.skepdic.com/nde.html</a>

Seraphim

"Yes, we don't need art but we still do it. Isn't this what I'm trying to show you ? You're just attributing it to something else for the reason that we don't need it but still does it & we don't know why. Wanna know how far whales date back to ? "

My reply : Sounds like there is a stalemate here - you cannot prove why humans have Arts nor its purpose and I cannot prove that it is contribute to something (other than theories) that links to the Mind.
How far does the whale date back?

"We knew a hand full of animals having activities which we may pertain to 'art' but that doesn't mean the rest of the animal kingdom don't have. Its just that we don't know what their 'art' is."

My reply : YET. We do not know whether they (animal species) have anything that can be contributed as Art like those of Man nor we can be certain that they do have something like that. Another stalemate here.

"One of the theory is due to population constraints."

My reply : Unproven one if you may add. Another theory (I may want to add) is "Follow the Leader". The Lemmings follows whoever in front not knowing that the idiot in front is going overboard... Hey! It's a logical theory.

"A favourite theory of whales beaching is something to do with miss navigation. Their way of navigating the sea is disrupted by human activities or climatic anormalies causing them to go astray."

My reply : Good one and it could explain it perfectly EXCEPT for one small detail that doesn't fit. An animal (anyone with a brain half the size of a whale) once sensed that its survival is in danger will strive to break out of that danger. If you drive a car and a bus suddenly appeared around the corner, you don't plow through, you will step on the break ASAP, right?

In another word, the whale should have strive to turn and swim out of the area. You may say that it is because of the radar that they do not know, that could be true, but once the stone and sand on the beach touch their underbelly, they should have known that they are going the wrong way and survival instinct should have kicked in.

And another thing about whale beaching themselves. Relief workers and volunteers who working to save this creatures reported that some whale fight back and continue to beach itself despite of the human effects. This is AGAINST an animals' survival instinct.

"Climatic changes causing hardship to the populace. What kind of hardship do we have in mind here - food, weather & living space as most likely.

Aren't they part of the basics of population constraints ? Too many people resulting in less food (in this case reduction in food to support existing population) plus maybe a shrinking land area (flooding of the red sea shore area) for the existing population meaning running out of living space."

My reply : Good explaination, except lack of ONE logical flaws - the group migrated from one place to another broke out of the main group which stay behind. The chance of survival is greater on the move following the game herds than on a shrinking land which couldn't support them. There is no gurantee that people who left behind will have adequate food supply nor any proof that the group which went forward return to the original group or to places they originated from.

"Horticulture not agriculture. (Think both of us are abit off here. ) "

My reply : Not sure what is Horticulture, so I just used the term Agriculture.

"Permanent settlements existed before irrigation.
First human settlement"

My reply : When the land could support a small number of people without much required modification to its soils in term of irrigations.

"You don't really need to have irrigation before you can establish a settled farming community."

My reply : True.

"They are either gatherers or hunters, like us using agriculture as a mean to get food. Only that due to their cranium capacity, they remain as hunters or gatherers."

My reply : In layman's terms, other homo species before Homo Sapiens (and during homo sapiens like Neanthals) become hunter gathers because of their brain size?

"So you are saying that ants don't have to work for their food therefore they can't be used to compare to humans ?"

My reply : What I'm saying is that resources to an ant in a rain forest is more than what humans have in actual environment. A colony could support itself in 1 mile square feet of rain forest than a group of men could in a few miles of agriculture land in a year since men are more prone to his environment than Ants, thus Ants are a lousy analog to a human settlement.

"Ants don't move much ? Ever heard of army ants (fire ants etc...) ? Why don't you read up more on ants before we compare further ?"

My reply : When I said they don't move much, I mean that they do not migrate as much as a Human did in the last 200,000 years. Fire ants are ONE branch of the whole colony - just like a fishermen or hunters are in a group of men.

"No, we adapt to our environment. BTW their are still others which form settlements. Bees comes to mind. Grophers, meerkats etc..."

My reply : All this example adapt to their environment, humans DO NOT adapt to his environment. In studies of early settlements such as in Africa and Australia shows that humans enter a area and burn to clear the land, they do not adapt to anything, just seek to bent others around him to suit his needs.

"How do they follow the same course ? A record of the past perphaps ? Even if some do travel from year to year isn't this a "pass reference" to them ? It still won't explain how monarch butterflies "knows" how to eventually reach their destination over a few generations if its just following a course they knew before."

My reply : Well, insects are built differently than humans. Some insects could detect infra-red signatures and even magnetic changes on the surface of the planet - for example those from Baja, California and runs down to central America. Monach butterflies could use this as guides. And also air-currents in term of hot or cold air, some birds could navigate yearly by knowing when a cold or hot wind will be blowing and from which direction. JUST like we have done with shipping before 1800s before steam ships were introduced. History weren't an important topic then for a navigator, just knowing which wind, the environment and condition of the sea.

"Still can't explain why only to the moon especially on full moon nights."

My reply : That is very simple - a simple act of survival from one of the top survivalists.
1. If a wolf howls at the sun, it open itself to target and detection, plus its prey will know there is a predator nearby, thus it is not suitable to howl in daytime (except maybe in dark forest where the surrounding is dim.

2. If a wolf howls at the moonless night, he will may make his presence known, but at the same time, lightless nights make it hard to see approaching prey, foe or friend. Thus, not suitable either.

3. Full-moon period. Enough light to see far, and enough shadows to hide in case needed. Wolf can shoot their mouths all they want because they can cover themselves in the darkness and same time, know who is coming or going.

"Am I changing here ? I just wish to point out that we can't possibily know what constitute as religion to animals & that saying they have none is just an assertion based upon no grounds."

My reply : In that case, till some scientists actually prove that animals do have a religion or do some sort of praying, I will assume that humans are the only one that has religion.

"Same as birds building elaborate nests. The question here would of course be, why then ?"

My reply : Owls comes to mind and they usually built nest which they use throughout their lifetime - usually in a barn or cave. Logical explaination could be that they found a perfect place which is high and safe to settle down and get married. What so hard about that? Or artistic about that?

"Not so my friend. How can you know if you are not a bird ? Remember we do build bird houses for birds but can you explain why some birds will chose a particular bird house instead of the other even though they are the same ?"

My reply : Bird house? Not sure about those since I never had one (here in Malaysia, humans usually keep pet birds in cages and that is hardly what I call a nest).
Sparrows are usually the type who choose bird cages right? Sparrows are also all-year time birds which doesn't migrate. My guess is that it choose a "nest" which is strong and suitable for it to raise youngs and one made of wood is just as strong as one made from fried leaves.

"Nice. Few people can realise this you know.
I think this is digressing too far from your OP. "

My reply : A few people run around with a name like Seraphim and don't look up to see whether a lightning bolt gonna strike them down for shooting their mouth either.
What is OP?

"Pls do make a review of your POV here so that we could discuss further as to the validity of whether the evolution of humans is natural or out or norm plus the usage of agriculture, art & religion as support to your hypothesis."

My reply : Which means?

Thanks for links.

Welcome.

Seraphim

"Our soul is our subconscious mind."

My reply : In another word, the Soul is what the mind created?

"We are humans for as long as we are enslaved to our humanity which is a condition of being that belongs to the animal man. God created the animal man and we added out humanity and that is why God has nothing to do with our human condition."

My reply : In that case, we have nothing to do with God nor do we need to worship Him since He only created the body and not the Soul.

My reply : Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't 666 supposed to be the number of the Beast or something according to the Bible? And what is so special about this man than the rest? This "marks" supposed to be like a entry ticket to heaven or to God?

"No but religious perversion is and spiritual fornication is the actual reason why people can go to hell and without this hell would not be possible. It is called the sin against the HS in the bible. "

My reply : OK, let me recap so far. Men created religion to get close to God but because of their stupidity, they twisted it around thus preventing them to reach the very God that their religion supposed to lead. Do I get it so far?

"But nobody is telling you to do anything. I am just responding to your post."

My reply : No, I just stating that I don't believe in Prophets since I don't believe in following some death guy to lead my own life.

As for Jerusalem and city of God stuff, it seems God going to have to built His city on Earth in Jerusalam after Christians and Muslims blast each other with Nukes from conditions so far ... at least the city will be glowing in dark and can cut source in electricity.

Seraphim

I will be On leave for the next few days (another celebration in my country - Deepavalli) for let's recap what we argued so far.

I started the argument by using Buddhism's approach to the Soul - that Soul is a Sentient Being which existed since beginning of this world and it contains the "Seed of Awakening" from the force that created the Universe through Big Bang.

The argument lasted the LONGEST when comes to the matter dealing with the concept of Soul, Mind, Brain and Body. While Soul and Mind IS the same, the Brain and Body is separate unity from the Mind.

I argued that the Body is useless without the Brain, thus with a Brain, the Body perform varies, automated functions (animals' Fight and Flight mechanism came to the mind). Thus it needs the Mind (Soul) to do more complex tasks.

My proof of this was creation of Art, Religion, Agriculture and the very act of moving from one place to another was possible because of the Soul. This act was considered (at least by me) as outside the normal Evolutionary path (as stated by Darwin) which followed by animal species.

Thus argument now stops here.