Corwin

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm starting to get this strange urge to start supporting the poor, oppressed Quebecquois nationals.... they need weapons and money so we should send them now! Free Quebec from the evil oppressors!

slept2long

I DEMAND AN ATHEIST HOMELAND RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!

Corwin

FIND a place first. Believe me, I've looked.

slept2long

I've got an idea for a perfect place. Lets find an area of the world where non-belief in a deity isn't tolerated then establish the state smack in the middle of that area, just for atheists. Then when the surrounding countries get in a tiff we just arm our atheist state to the teeth and let it run wild over surrounding nations till they settle down and stop trying to destroy us. Then allow our atheist state to occupy land adjacent to that state and treat the people like dirt then proclaim, when those people start fighting back, that we are not going to reach any agreement till they stop retaliating for our offences against them.

Corwin

I've got a better idea. Why don't we stop dragging in arguments than have been oversimplified to a ludicrous level, stop adding in idealogically influenced 'facts' that don't hold up under scrutiny, and trying to pass it off as an historical event?

Of course where's the fun in that?

Sauron

Why should I do that? Was that my argument? I don't think so. It is not a bogus argument - it simply isn't a comparison to Hitler. That's your fault for jumping to the wrong conclusion.

I specifically defined what was going on - relocation of non-Jewish elements and possession of their land and property - which is commonly known as ethnic cleansing. This occurred after the 1948 war, and again after the 1967 war.

The policy I described above was and is official policy. In fact, it is the *point* of the WB settlements. Ariel Sharon was very explicit about why they were placing Jewish settlers in the WB, in a recent inteview on CNN - "if you raise a child in these hills, so that he grows up and sees these valleys and hills, he will think of it as his home. And he will fight to defend it."

It is not irrelevant - just inconvenient for your position.

As I indicated earlier, the dual citizenship did not exist at that time. If you're talking about Germany, a lack of dual citizenship was not the problem: it was living under a police state that would not let them leave, once the German atrocities started.

And as for the rest of history, the same thing is true. If a Jewish community is going to be under attack (in Spain, for example) then the existence of Israel isn't going to prevent that.

Other than that, I don't see where your comment connects to this discussion in any way.


There has been no attempt at genocide until Hitler. There was anti-semitic oppression (both socially and by official policies, such as in Spain). But not genocide. In the vast majority of countries, Jews formed a valuable contribution to the host country, often becoming leaders in govt, commerce, or education. The occasional pogrom, or even the expulsion from a country, does not equate to genocide.

So you can overstate your claims if you like, but they aren't going to get you much mileage.

Sauron

Or, you could just do what the zionists did - find a piece of land, kick out the existing inhabitants, and when they complain, just tell them that God said it was OK.

Corwin

This has been going on to an extent in the occupied territories, mostly in areas terrorist groups like Hamas have been working out of. (Remember Jenin?) While it may not be pleasant, I don't have nearly the problem with it... and the whole thing would STOP if the neighboring countries would just accept that Israel has a right to exist. Remember Sinai? Egypt accepted Israel's right to exist. Egypt got their territory back. It really IS that simple.

Accept Israel's basic right to exist and this is no longer a problem. Those who hold this position no longer have a legal leg to stand on.... and you end up with a situation like Sinai.

It's 'inconvenient' if you ignore half the original argument.

You are, in fact, missing the entire point.

'Oh don't worry, you have dual citizenship! Things get bad in Israel... you can just go back to Russia!'

'Yeah.... out of the carbomb, into the gulag.... great... thanks... appreciate it....'

But it does give them a place to run to. One which doesn't exist in the absense of Israel.

You have got to be fucking joking.

Ever heard of the Crusades? The Inquisition? The Teutonic Knights were notorious for NOT going to the middle east. It was so much more convenient to say home and butcher jews. You've completely ignored the various crusades called by various popes against both muslims AND jews living in europe for over a thousand years.

The past twelve hundred years or so haven't exactly been a gentle period of history as far as jews in europe are concerned. During that period it was actually fairly common for jews to flee european countries and run for muslim countries. The muslims would tax them. The europeans were killing them.

All well and good.... except AS HAS BEEN DEMONSTRATED, this is not what actually happened.

slept2long

That's a great idea. I was looking forward to your continued participation in this thread though.

slept2long

I think it did happen AFTER the '67 war.