Buddrow_Wilson

I actually am in a level of agreement with practically everything he says, up until the point where children and adult sex is good and should be legal. He makes somewhat intelligent sounding arguments, but never really responds directly or clearly to our questions and comments. This leads me to believe he has done a good job of creating this rationale in his mind, but has done little serious debate.

beth

I wish I hadn't. I did see a new area that I hadn't before. It is child porn. He also has a forum where the pervs unite to talk of the beauty of abusing children. I am leaving this thread now. Too discouraging. I do think society has warped views of sexuality, but adults cannot and should not engage in sexual acts with children. Buddrow, I know cops who smoke weed, they feel that the softs drugs should be legalized. You have your freedom of speach. We should be able to speak our minds in here, but it is truly disturbing when it is in someone's innermost psyche to have sex with children.

I say to to pedophiles out there who think they should have rights like the gays, TOUGH! If you have unfulfilled desires there always chemical castration. Serial Killers have a compulsive need to kill. It fulfills them. Should they be allowed to kill? The sickos who mess with little kids are killing their spirit and true nature in some way. I do remember before I was abused, I was a different person. That little girl died never to exist again. I wonder what she would have done if she had been allowed to exist.

Buddrow_Wilson

Even in a best case scenario, the problem arises that an adult engaging in sex with a child (esp. prebuscent) is likely to have an effect of shattering their understanding of the world. Forcing a pseudo-maturity to occur in the child. Perhaps for some this is something they can deal with, but even so, it effectively catapults them out of childhood into a state with few peers for many years. They will feel as outsiders wishing they could be and think like the other children. Maybe in mid to late teens they will come around to feeling normal again. However, we know there are many who never recover from this"accelerated maturity" and suffer life-long psychological trauma.

Pat, if you are still checking back, almost noone is going to accept that what you propose could ever be harmless in a general sense. Honestly, how is it detrimental to society for a person to suppress their sexual urges towards children??

christ-on-a-stick

Buddrow said, This leads me to what I feel is another crucial point.

If I understand him correctly, Pat would like us to acknowledge that there could, possibly, be some instances of adult/child sex that are not psychologically harmful.

Even if an adult/child sexual encounter occurred that did not cause physical harm to the child and even in the extremely unlikely event that the child initiated said contact, I maintain that it *always* causes a degree of psychological harm for the following reasons:

1) Children are, as a rule , emotionally (psychologically) immature. Even the most precocious child, of high intelligence and perhaps seemingly more "mature" than his or her peers, still lacks the emotional maturity that develops with age and life experience.

2) Children simply do not have the same level of self-awareness and ability to make reflective, reasoned decisions as to their best interest. This is obviously why parents and caretakers are responsible for making decisions about what may or not be "good for" the child despite the child's preference.

3) To children, adults are authority figures. There is an inherent imbalance of power.

In light of these considerations, two things are clear:

A) Children are not capable of giving informed consent. PERIOD.

B) Initiation/introduction to sexual activity with a partner who is a) at a different level of emotional maturity and b) in a position of power is likely to warp the child's understanding of the role of sexuality in relationships.

These together make it obvious IMO that for an adult to exploit a child's naivete and vulnerability for his own sexual gratification is always morally reprehensible.

Pat Kelly

I recognize and agree with the need to stick to the issues in a discussion and keep things from moving into personal attacks. However, sometime the issues themselves evolve into why people are unable to relate to the issues which is occasionally an even more interesting topic than the original one. None of what follows is meant to reflect upon any particular person's abilities though some specific references are made for the sake of realistic examples.

Wrong. I have avoided nothing. What I have done is post opinions that differ from your own and you seem to find this highly objectionable. I would suggest the answers you seek from me may not be the same answers you have come up with and the only thing you seem willing to define as an answer are statements that mirror your own conclusions. You are fanatical in an approach that refused to consider the possible validity in anything except your own assumed “correct” answers. Ironically, at the same time your narrow and one-sided view of this issue coupled with high emotions void of logic is a clear indication your thinking is flawed along with the conclusions derived from that thinking. I am being generous here with the word thinking and probably would be more accurate if I used the word parroting.

No it is you who has the problem here in your repetitive inability to move beyond the fact relatively few children are forced into sex by an adult against their will. Beyond that you see and know nothing.
More of the same harping on the same single issue as if it is the only issue. And yet I have repeatedly stated on numerous occasions, ad nauseam for the benefit of people such as yourself my crystal clear view that any form of forced sex or sex in any way associated with assault is wrong. I have no way to account for your obvious oversight of this fact except to assume you have a very selective memory capable of twisting what someone wrote into only those meanings that suit your particular needs(Whatever they might be.). You take issue and want to argue a point we already seem to agree on. In my way of thinking this would be a waste of time. Perhaps you have a different view.
Arriving at any consensus about a “central” issue of concern would take two or more parties involved in the discussion. You seem to have taken it upon yourself to not only determine the only acceptable answers in this discussion but which issues are permitted to be entered into the argument. It seems you will try any means to force someone to confirm what you believe to be true. I sorry, I do not share your narrow views of either sex, childhood sexuality or adults and children engaging in sexual behavior and unless you are able to come up with a rational argument to support your position, my views will not be swayed. At least not by you.
Now you have even taken it upon yourself to not only assume but to publicly state your assumption as apparent fact that I am an abuser of children. Yet we have never met and the only thing you could possible know about me is from the words I have written. And nowhere in those words have I ever said anything, anyone could rationally conclude justifies an assumption I have ever abused a child. In fact, I have gone out of my way, again for the sake of people such as yourself who like to jump to conclusions, and stated I personally have no sexual interest in children, I am married with two children of my own, I responded aggressively to someone who engaged in sex with my daughter, I find women attractive, the friends I associate with are heterosexual, I am personally homophobic and so on. Where do you come off stating I have apparently grown up to become an abuser of children? Clearly the only rational way someone such as yourself could arrive at such a conclusion is out of an urgent need to find anything that could account for why my views about childhood sexuality differ so much from your own. You will have to find some other way to account for my views towards childhood sexuality and the common sense they are incased in even if they oppose what you have learned to believe. Is it possible for you to consider the real reason my ideas clash with your own views might just be because your views are inaccurate, emotional, shallow, not well thought out, void of unbiased reasoning and on and on and on?

Anyway, this is all the time I am willing to devote to you and your single pointed ramblings and I will not respond to you or your same question again. Perhaps you should answer your own alleged question and save everyone a lot of time and wasted keystrokes. It is obviously pointless to engage in conversation with someone incapable of considering anything but their own point of view. You stick to your understandings and continue to ignore any and all rational issues that show the faults in your reasoning. It must be nice to feel you already have all the answers thus eliminating any future need to entertain the possibility you just might have gotten it all wrong.

Someone once said; "Ignorance is bliss." I can't help but wonder the type of person they had in mind when they made this statement. Then again, it always seems to be that those who know the least are driven to impress everyone with their personal delusion they already have all the answers.

BrotherMan

Pat Kelly

This is a big question and one could probably write a book to answer it. I will have to quickly skim across only some of the points.

1 – In a society that restricts adult/child sex with severe penalties for anyone caught in such activities, an individual who succumbs to his or her sex drives and engages in sex with a child is induced by the severe penalties themselves to remove the evidence by killing the child. I am 100% certain that some if not many children would still be alive today were it not for the enormous social and legal consequences of adult child sex. Personally I would rather see a live child dealing with the emotional trauma of rape than a family grieving at a funeral. I am certain those families share this view.

2 - The truth is no amount of social or legal consequences is going to stop every single person attracted to children from acting upon that attraction. Sex is simply too strong a drive. At the same time, there are very serious potential psychological consequences in some people when the sex drive remains unfilled or restricted for extended periods of time which can affect the mental stability of some. Driving certain pedophiles crazy by removing any possible outlet for their sexuality cannot be a good thing for children who become the victims of the few forced over the edge. Children are in fact statistically much safer from the potential of forced sex in societies where adult/child sex is more acceptable. See my post in the topic on child porn for the details of the study.

3 – The measures taken to protect children from sex are in themselves likely the single most detrimental factor affecting the development of children in today’s society. Children are forced to grow-up seeing their innate sexuality in a negative light based upon the over emphasis that much of adult sexuality can be described in a predatory fashion. The overall message is that all good children are supposed to abstain from sex until they are older which is beyond the ability of any child thus setting all children up to see themselves as falling short of social expectations. Much of the turmoil in adolescence can be traced to the conflict between children’s natural sexuality and the unrealistic social expectations that have been placed upon them. Even though we have come to equate adolescence with rebellion and turmoil, there is no rational reason to assume this is natural and not a clear indication there is something seriously wrong with social views towards sex.

4 - Hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent in the US and elsewhere on attempts to wipe out child pornography that could have easily been put to more effective uses in protecting and bettering the lives of today’s children. Insanely, it seems more important to many to prevent someone from looking at a dirty picture than to provide all children with access to adequate healthcare. Thousands of people have been jailed whose only crime was to download pictures of children engaged in sex over the internet. Such people have become social scapegoats for the real culprits who physically and mentally abuse children. And while the focus remains on child pornography, children continue to be harmed by the unaddressed realities that do not get our attention.

5 - In the name of protecting children through government intervention, many families have been destroyed, children have been placed in foster care and even prison, adults have received extended prison terms, had their lives ruined and some have even been forced to commit suicide. And while all this is being done to protect children, few if any children are actually any safer. In fact, a certain number of children have lost their lives as a direct result of the harsh penalties related to adult/child sex while countless others have suffered debilitating socially induced guilt that wouldn’t exist at all if current social attitudes towards sex were a little more realistic.

6 - Children as young as three years old are regularly being referred to state and private funded counseling to modify or prevent the behavioral expressions of their sexuality. Many seem to have accepted the concept that children aren’t supposed to be sexual and define any sexual behavior displayed by children as abnormal. And when child sexual behavior involves more than one child it is even viewed as abuse with the older child seen as the abuser and the younger child seen as the victim.
A nonprofit United Way agency, the Children's Advocacy Center in Florida prides itself on being dedicated to preventing and treating all types of child abuse through a variety of direct services. “Our agency's mission is to break the cycle of child abuse," says Darlene Stewart, director of counseling at the center. “Which is why specialized counseling services are made available to child sex offenders as well as to the child victims of sexual abuse.” “About a tenth of our caseload is child-on-child,” says Stewart. “We have 20 or so open cases at any given time, with the young abusers ranging in age from 11 to as young as 3 years old.”

7 - In January of last year, a nine year old girl in Manchester Connecticut USA was arrested and charged with forth degree sexual assault and a felony of three counts of risk of injury to a minor for engaging in sex play with her friends. One of the other kids happened to mention the event to their parents some months later who became alarmed and notified police. Police sergeant John Matson said the girl is in denial and that the local police want to show her the seriousness of what happened. According to Maston, the alleged incident occurred in the fall, when the girl and three other children, a 3-year-old boy and two girls, 4 and 5 were playing in a bedroom. The girl is charged with initiating sex between the younger children and then with her, Maston said. If convicted on all counts, the nine year old girl faces up to 4-years in a state juvenile facility.

Closing one’s eyes and refusing to acknowledge the reality that many children are severely hurt by current laws and social restrictions upon their sexuality is more obscene than any image of so-called child pornography could ever be. America and the many countries who bowed to American anti-sex pressures should start to address the real dangers confronting children instead of pursuing irrational illusions of moral purity.

This may be a harsh statement but it appears well founded in reality: Any society that has begun to label children as young as 3-years old as sexual abusers and further, condones forcing children into therapy to restrict the natural expression of their sexuality is a sick and highly disturbed society. Any culture that imprisons people for nothing more than possessing or looking at pictures no matter what the content is unquestionably a culture gone mad. The US and several other countries are just one step away from burning books and setting historical precedence that will surely be seen in the same light. There is absolutely no doubt that imprisoning people for simply looking at pictures is not only wrong, immoral, unjust and an infringement upon basic human rights; it is clearly a crime against humanity that should not be allowed to continue.

Attempts to change the reality of human sexuality by traumatizing children into accepting adult illusions of moral purity must be viewed as one of the most serious forms of abusive behavior perpetrated against children. While we have moved to ban genital mutilation within certain countries the psychological rape and abuse regarding childhood sexuality has reached epidemic proportions. Immediate steps must be taken to introduce new international legislation with strict legal penalties for any individual or institution, government or otherwise, found abusing children like the 9-year old American girl charged with sexual assault.

These are the ones who are doing the real and serious harm to children on a massive scale as the abuse they inflict is obscured by ideas they are only protecting children from the evils of sex. But what children really need protection from is those who purposely taint the reality of sex to generate votes or sell newspapers or simply draw attention to themselves within a world where such hypocrisy has become accepted practice. If we are ever going to get serious about protecting children from real harm we must begin to hold people responsible at an individual level for the emotional carnage inflicted upon whole generations of children. As parents, teachers and responsible citizens everywhere, we all have a duty to get involved in defending our most precious and vulnerable resource. We must finally put an end to the morally corrupt cycle of abuse deliberately targeting children and stop those who would do worse to our children today then was once done to us.

Buddrow_Wilson

Perhaps its true that more victims would be left alive as a ratio, but its possible (maybe likely) there would a massive increase in the instances of adult/child sex and the overall damage would still be greater if such activity was condoned.

Maybe allowing the access to images of their desires would suffice?

I'm somewhat in agreement here, although I don't know how you relate this to adults and children needing to have sex.

I agree, but the realities aren't so much unaddressed than inadequately so.

Are you saying that when parents are having sex with their underage children, they should not be separated?

I would agree that children exploring sexually with other children is generally benign and should not be overblown. However, there are cases in which children assault and rape other children that need to be addressed.

This is very sad, and definately taken too far. There is some concern considering the girl was 9 and the other children so much younger. In a lesser sense its a case of abusing trust, perhaps counseling would be in order here.

I can't really argue with this statement, but I don't see how this leads to adults having sex with kids being acceptable.

I'm in general agreement here.

Look, to be honest with you, I don't think these attitudes are really getting worse. Would you say 50 years ago things were better? Social conditioning doesn't change overnight.

Ok so we "protect" our children by allowing adults to have sex with them? I fail to see how a realistic outlook on childhood and sexuality must lead to this.

christ-on-a-stick

INDUCED??? WTF??? So the "regular person" who can't resist their pedophiliac tendencies is magically depraved enough to commit murder because of how "severe" the penalties for molestation/rape are???

Koyaanisqatsi

And others as deliberate baiting techniques, IMO, but f*ck it. Let's go around the may pole one more time!

Yes, you have and everyone knows it and has told you this repeatedly.

We're not children. You have consistently avoided dealing with the other, primary participant in the adult/child issue.

Just as you will again here.

Your opinions, yes. The fact that you think you've posted these opinions in response to my question, no.

The question was about the adult's responsibility (i.e. culpability) in the actions he or she takes in regard to receiving sexual satisfaction from a child.

You know this; you clearly pointed it out and you continue to avoid it while all the time pretending you are engaging in a "serious discussion" about all of the issues.

ADDRESS THE CENTRAL ISSUE. DOES AN ADULT PEDOPHILE GET SEXUAL SATISFACTION FROM A CHILD, YES OR NO?

If that makes things easier for you.

Does an adult pedophile get sexual satisfaction from engaging in sexual activity with a child, yes or no?

The answer you cannot give is YES, they do. Which means they are responsible for their own sexuality and the harm it inflicts.

It also means that in every single instance of adult/child sex without a single exception possible the adult is at fault for not stopping the activity.

Always. Incontrivertably. Established.

Which in turn means that any adult who engages in sex with a child or even allows it to happen is committing a form of rape; of taking undue advantage of their knowledge and experience and maturity and using that knowledge and experience and maturity to their own advantage, in complete disregard for the known psychological trauma they are necessarily inflicting upon the child.

Hell, many times, grown men and women don't even know when a line has been crossed and you're trying to tell me that immature children are capable of understanding what is happening to them? That they are engaging in consensual sex, when they have no clue what the hell that means? Grown adults don't always know what that means, how can a child who is conditioned to believe that anything an adult says is "right" and anything an adult does is "ok" know when a line has been crossed and they are being raped or molested?

Answer. They cannot. So it is the adult's responsibility to never put a child into that position to begin with and above all, if such a situation arises, it is the adult's responsibility to stop it.

Now, you seem to be saying, "Why? Why should I? It's not my responsibility, I just want to get my rocks off."

And that's the question and the issue you keep avoiding as well as desperatly trying to rationalize, IMO.

Translation: you know damn well the conclusions I'm referring to and therefore are quite clearly doing everything in your power to avoid them.

Again!



Keep dancing.

Really? If it is so clear, then kindly provide detailed analysis.

You know what, nevermind. You can't. Which is why you are deliberately baiting me into this pointless "oh yeah, well you don't do this" farce yet again in order to avoid dealing with the only salient issue.

Enough. You present nothing more than deliberate obfuscation of your own culpability in your advocacy.

Q.E.D.