Freethought & Rationalism Archive

jonesg · 08-10-2005, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hinduwoman

Because the Book was written by parents and not children? :wave:

you'll be ok,
just try not to have children, they need more of a moral compass to navigate life than opinions.

premjan · 08-10-2005, 07:37 AM

Children can't have more of a compass on life than their parents do, if you want it to be real and truthful that is...

jonesg · 08-10-2005, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Columbus

I was conceived by a couple of stupid college students in the late 50's. My bio-dad booked the minute he found out my bio-mom was pregnant. He had married someone else before I was even born. In a pre-RoevWade world she was not able to just kill me, so here I am. She got rid of me as fast as she could, and for that I thank her. But despite her concerted effort to track me down, I don't even want to correspond with her. I'm rather angry with the State of Michigan for reneiging on the deal they made in 1958 to seal my court records. I honor my parents because they are good people and took good care of me and made me part of a good family etc. But they are not my Mother and Father according to the Bible. My folks are much better than that. I owe my Mother and Father nothing.

I can understand why a Bronze Age moral code would include this commandment. It was a world where most people started families in their mid-teens and rarely survived much past forty. If a family man wanted his inheritance he might find his 50ish father more convenient dead than alive. The old man might well have outlived his usefulness and just be an impediment to getting on with things. Preserving his wisdom for the tribe might well have required a rule for the individuals. But don't tell me an ancient moral code means I owe my Father anything, because I don't.

Tom

Your earthly father failed because he is human.

You owe them your forgiveness.
You owe them acceptence of your forgiveness.
Its never too late to grow up and get beyond self.

0 · 08-12-2005, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonesg

Your earthly father failed because he is human.

You owe them your forgiveness.
You owe them acceptence of your forgiveness.
Its never too late to grow up and get beyond self.

When perfect strangers assert that I have an obligation and in fact OWE my parents forgiveness and acceptance, I think they completely miss the definition of what a parent is supposed to consist of.

As kaelcarp stated, my parents walked away from me before the age of three. My father left me with my paternal grandmother, who used her religious fundamentalism as an excuse to beat me senseless. I went to school hiding bruises underneath baggy clothing on more occasions that I care to remember. I didn't see my mother until I was eighteen. I can count one hand the number of times I saw my father, who knew about the beatings but did absolutely nothing about them.

Yet I have had people throughout my life telling me that I owe some sort of alligance to these people despite all the ill treatment merely because I am a part of their family tree. I should forgive them and embrace them despite the ill treatment and negativity they CONTINUE to bring into my life (particularly my father) even today. And if I don't, I haven't "grown up yet." :huh:

There are only three things that you HAVE to do: 1) accept what happened, 2) move on with your life and 3) love yourself. This is what allows you to survive and thrive. I've been through enough therapy to have learned these lessons finally.

I invite you to attend a group therapy session as I have with other adults that suffered abuse and neglect as children. I invite you to listen to their stories, as I have, and tell them to their faces that they owe their parents anything after horrendous abuse, rape, abandonment, and mental anguish they have suffered. Hell, the first therapist I ever saw cried listening to me during a therapy session.

It is far easier to tell someone what they should do when it isn't you that's walking in those shoes.

My two cents,
Tangie

Tom Sawyer · 08-12-2005, 08:24 AM

I think when people talk about an obligation to one's parents, they're generally talking about parents who spent years of their lives raising and caring for them. Parents that walked away from the kids aren't owed any obligations whatsoever.

It's hard raising kids and the people who do it deserve some respect as a result, but those who left during the difficult part and now want to come back into the kid's life now that the hard part is done and still be recognized as parents because they were glorified sperm donors aren't owed anything at all.

Cliftongrl · 08-12-2005, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonesg

Your earthly father failed because he is human.

You owe them your forgiveness.
You owe them acceptence of your forgiveness.
Its never too late to grow up and get beyond self.

No, these people are not owed anything at all.
People who do nothing to deserve forgiveness do not warrant forgiveness.
You have the right to be angry. Of course you don't want it to eat up your life, but not respecting someone who mistreats you is not a failure to "grow up".

Cliftongrl · 08-12-2005, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonesg

Because God commands it.
Its "Honor thy Mother and Thy Father",
not Thy Children.

Why do you think that is ?

Because in the bible, might makes right.

jonesg · 08-15-2005, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cliftongrl

Because in the bible, might makes right.

In a normal situation a parent is mature , a child thinks like a child.
In my bible Love makes right.

jonesg · 08-15-2005, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cliftongrl

No, these people are not owed anything at all.
People who do nothing to deserve forgiveness do not warrant forgiveness.
You have the right to be angry. Of course you don't want it to eat up your life, but not respecting someone who mistreats you is not a failure to "grow up".

You don't have to respect what they did but respect what they are, parents first, weak people second.
Thats the only way to get on with life, accept them in their limitations as others accept you in your imperfection.

Tom Sawyer · 08-15-2005, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonesg

In my bible Love makes right.

You should try reading the Christian one then - it gives a different story.

Quote:

You don't have to respect what they did but respect what they are, parents first, weak people second.
Thats the only way to get on with life, accept them in their limitations as others accept you in your imperfection.

What should they be given respect for - being glorified sperm donors or being people who didn't follow through on their obligations and abandoning an innocent child who depended on them?

I think it's quite possible to get on with one's life without forgiving people who don't deserve forgiveness. It's unhealthy to keep blaming them and negatively affecting one's own life by focusing on what they did, but that doesn't mean that they have to be forgiven in order for the child to move on. They don't deserve it.

Imperfections are things like leaving dirty underwear on the floor. Abandoning children is much worse.

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08-10-2005, 07:37 AM	#22
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	Children can't have more of a compass on life than their parents do, if you want it to be real and truthful that is...

08-12-2005, 08:24 AM	#25
Tom Sawyer Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Toronto, eh Posts: 42,293	I think when people talk about an obligation to one's parents, they're generally talking about parents who spent years of their lives raising and caring for them. Parents that walked away from the kids aren't owed any obligations whatsoever. It's hard raising kids and the people who do it deserve some respect as a result, but those who left during the difficult part and now want to come back into the kid's life now that the hard part is done and still be recognized as parents because they were glorified sperm donors aren't owed anything at all.

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