NOGO

All quotes here are from Matthew 24 in NASB
First one must realized that Jesus is answering two questions

v3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, ""Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?

The two questions are
1) When will the temple be destroyed
2) When is Jesus' second coming and the end of the world.

Since Kenneth Gentry admits that the tribulations spoken by Jesus are the answer to the first question we can proceed to the second question except for a small note which I think is very telling.

v21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Note that the sentence starts with a projection into the future. (ie a prophecy)
Note the words "until now"
Shouldn't this be "until then"
This is a case of writer's perpective. The writer is betraying his point of view. This text was written when the tribulations in question were already started. That is why the author uses the words "until now".
These are the greatest tribulations the world have ever seen including Noah's story and the flood.
The reason for this will become obvious.

v29 ""But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Note the words immediately after the tribulations.
So right after the destruction of the temple is the end of the world. This is the start of the answer to the second question.

v33 So, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.
v34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
v35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
v36 But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Unlike what Kenneth Gentry says or implies verse 34 includes the events in verse 29.
Verse 36 cannot be made to mean that Jesus did not know when this would happen and therefore it can be anytime in the future (ie 2000 years). Verse 34 is precise enough but certainly not as precise as stating the exact day or hour which Jesus claims only the Father knows in verse 36.

So the great tribulations in verse 21 were the worst since the start of the world simply because they are a prelude to the end of the world.

The Romans destroyed the temple in AD 70 but verse 29 never happened. The conclusion should be obvious.
To most rational people the conclusion is that Jesus was not what the Gospels claimed him to be.
To believers the conclusion is that we are not reading this text properly. We need to re-read it until all is well again and they can continue to believe.

NOGO

[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

TheDiddleyMan

I think you are right NOGO. Also, Matthew 16:28 says that some will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. That pretty much settles it.
The Diddley Man

Bob K

Matt. 16:28 Verily I say unto you [Peter and the other disciples], There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matt. 17:1-2 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, and was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was as white as the light. ... 5 ... behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. ... 9. And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

A Jehovah’s Witness claimed that the transfiguration of Matt. 17:1-2, 5, 9, is the fulfillment of the promise/prediction of Matt. 16:28.

A similar story is presented in Mark 9:1-3, 7, 9. And he said unto them [the disciples], Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. ... And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

And in Luke 9:27- But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistening. ...But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory ... there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered unto the cloud. And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

Is the transfiguration of Jesus the fulfillment of his promise/prediction that his coming/the Kingdom of God should be within the lifetimes of those standing and hearing the promise/prediction?

[ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: Bob K ]</p>

NOGO

Matthew 16:27:28
For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.

The only way that anyone can believe that the transfiguration fulfills this prophecy must necessaily split verses 27 and 28 as if they had nothing to do with each other. For the rest of us it is obvious that Jesus was talking about the end of the world. In the transfiguration Jesus did not repay every man according to his deeds.

The other reason this interpretation cannot be taken seriously is as follows.
When people say something like
"Some of you will still be alive before something or other happens"
They usually mean two things.
a) Many if not most people are expected to be dead. "Still" here implies that those alive are rather advanced in age.
b) It is surprizing that the event is taking place so quickly. The event is expected after all are dead, perhaps long after.

The first item makes the date of the event at least a few years into the future. In fact I would say "the end of this generation". If the event is a week or two into the future then the whole sentence becomes meaningless. It is like putting a lot of emphasis and drama followed by a rather mundane statement.
In a week or two you would expect all the people that you are talking to, to be there. If one person is near death or ill and you say something like this it becomes a really obnoxious statement.

For the second item:
Is it so surprizing that the transfiguration is taking place so soon? It isn't!
Jesus could have shown his discples the tranfiguration at any time.
The surprize is obvious if you take verses 27 and 28 together. This would mean that the end of the world will come within the generation of the poeple of that day which is in accordance with Matthew 24 and other verses in the NT.

[ February 03, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

NOGO

One last thing.
Note "There are some standing here which shall not taste death"

If this is a prophecy of somthing that took place six days later then one is to assume that most people standing there listening to Jesus actually died during those six days and did not witness the transfiguration.

[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

thedoc

CowboyX wrote:
The usual argument is that the Greek word GENEA can be translated as race which is absurd.

My Greek dictionary says, "genea, n., generation, one's own kind or race, descendant; fig., age, period of time(as in "to all generations")"

CX

You'll have to forgive a bit of hyperbole on my part. It is not precisely correct to say the idea is "absurd", but given the context the most plain meaning is the usual definition. The other problem is that most lexicons and dictionaries of Koine Greek are written by believers. Consequently theological underpinnings are unmistakeably present. Since Koine is quite unlike modern Greek (most native Greek speakers can neither read nor speak Koine unless they have studied it) we are left to interpretive means of determining the meanings of words. It is largely through the discovery of papyrus fragments of pedestrian documents found in Egyptian rubbish heaps that we are able to determine anything about the language of the New Testament.

Still if we look at the beliefs of early Xians it seems abundantly clear that they expected Jesus return in their own lifetimes. This is especially evident in Paul's early letters. Consequently there is little reason to pick a more interpretive and obscure meaning for GENEA unless we have doctrinal reasons for rejecting the usual meaning such as inerrancy.

thedoc

Although I may not agree with all of the interpretations in this thread you do have a good point when you said,

"The other problem is that most lexicons and dictionaries of Koine Greek are written by believers."

In response to NOGO about Mt 16:
Weren't the original writings written without chapter and verse markings? My only point is that the verse numbers have no meaning in the translation. They are simply a tool for finding things. So to say that verse 27 and 28 have to be taken together to get the intended meaning doesn't make sense to me.

Since the books of the bible were written in paragraph form and not in verses, wouldn't you also have to take all of the writings around a single verse and not just the one preceding it? I believe the paragraph starts at verse 24 and ends at verse 28. I don't think the topic of the paragraph specifically pointed to the end of the world.

Just a thought.

Quote from NOGO:
"If this is a prophecy of somthing that took place six days later then one is to assume that most people standing there listening to Jesus actually died during those six days and did not witness the transfiguration."

I don't see this either. Jesus simply stated,"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

Didn't Peter, James, and John witness the transfiguration? They were "standing there" and they also saw the transfiruation just like he said. Jesus did not state that everyone else that was "standing there" would die in the next six days but simply that they would not witness the transfiguration like the "some" refers to. You could assume however that the others that did not witness the transfiguration did die without seeing Jesus coming in his Kingdom because they did not witness what Peter, James, and John did.

thedoc

Another thought: I think that MT 16:27 is more of a response to the question stated in MT 16:26. Here is the whole paragraph.

24  ¶Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26  For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27  For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28  Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

NOGO

Sounds more like a threat to me.
But this question and the answer given naturally lead to the idea of final judgement and the end of the world. Followed by Jesus in MT 16:28 saying that this is coming sooner than most people think. ie, within this generation.