jasonpiao

Oxymoron: Great post!

I guess I just have a hard time making the distinction between the beliefs of an organization and the beliefs of its members. I'm sure there are some 'really nice guys' in the Klu Klux Klan, and some who don't agree with burning crosses but definitely feel they are superior to minorities. Saying that Christianity is not ALL bad doesn't really jive with me because the end effect IS all bad. Also there still is no grounds in reality for it, so why should I respect it?
As far as immorality goes, there is plenty that I find immoral within Christianity. Indoctrination itself seems immoral to me. Denying women choice over their own bodies is immoral to me.
Maintaining a profitable empire in the name of goodwill is immoral to me.
I don't dislike Christians because of it, but respect is a whole different game, and it rarely seems to go both ways with them.

Now, if Splat's sister told you that she was speaking to god, how many Christians would respect what she told them, and how many would say "Well obviously she's ill, because why would she hear god when I can't?"

[ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: jasonpiao ]</p>

Wyz_sub10

I'm a little late into the fray, and others have responded better than I could, but I just wanted to make a couple of brief comments:

Porbably to the degree that it maintains order and sustainability in your "society".

How would the above be facilitated if you indugled your sister? Probably not well, as it is not sustainable (for her own mental health), although it may provide temporary "order" in maintaining your relationship.

How would the above be facilitated if you indulged your spouse? Probably well enough. Her beliefs are sustainable and it helps keep the peace between you.

I won't take up space applying the above to everyone in everyone else's life, but when looking at indulging belief you have to consider the effects on the world around you - locally and globally.

Yes. Consider female circumcision or apartheid or stoning sentences. If we hold all beliefs to be equally, then trying to teach some moral code of conduct or ethics becomes futile.

No, I believe Splat looking for relative perspective - not an absolute.

That depends. What if she's right? What if she convinces others she's right? What if you hold expensive stock in Cheerios and she starts telling anyone who will listen that she's right?

Splat

Oxymoron posts like I do in the same dream where I'm in buff shape and can do nothing poorly or wrong! That's definitely a keeper.

Great posts, ya'll. Lots to chew on.

Vesica

Respecting the religious beliefs of others......

This is a sticky issue but I think both your intent and the reaction of the believer guide the narrow path between respect and agreement or repect and dismissal. You can obviously disagree with the person but I think often this disagreement crosses the line into personal attacks. People are complicated in thier thought and belief processes....While you can think the logic flawed, I don't think it would be respectful to cross that line into saying that the person is incapable of clear thinking. Often 'repsect' gets stated like 'I think you have a right to believe in God, I think you are stupid if you do, but feel free'. To me this is not a respectful attitude and not particularly clear thinking on the part of the non-believer. You are dimissing a person's intellectual worth on the basis of belief, belief in an area they may not even consider an 'intellectual' one.

As for your sister......
While you don't want to patronizing by pretending to go along with her suspicions...Would it be different if you could ease her fears by going along with her?? You stated in a later post that she has not gotten any comfort from more locks but if she did, would you be more willing to 'support' her beliefs to comfort her?

I do see paralells between the two situations. Sometimes it is better to stay silent about disagreements only because speech will gain nothing and could easily hurt the other person. I think most theists and non-theists have some latitude for modifying thier beliefs but the source is very important. For example, I would not be likely to abandon my theist tendancies based solely on criticism or disagreement on this BB because I don't know any of you....A person I knew well would stand a much better chance. Still this BB provides many thought provoking discussions I share with other thinking theists I know....So I guess while dialouge/debate is encouraged, one should be mindful of others feelings. There are ways to shred logic or arguments without attacking the person's character/intelligence/worth.

Jamie_L

I think it's not black and white. Different organizations require different levels and types of commitments and beliefs. As I said, I don't care how nice someone in the KKK is, accepting the basic tenant of racial superiority is (in my book) immoral.

Accepting that a supernatural God created the universe and sent himself/his son to be crucified does not necessarily immoral. There are many Christians who do not accept all the immoral things (from my perspective) in the Bible.

I didn't say you should respect Christianity.

My point is just that if I have a friend who is kind to me and others, generally moral from my perspective, and has a lot of solid qualities that make him a reliable friend and a good citizen, I'm not going to treat him with contempt and disrespect just because he happens to be Christian. Based on my encounters with people (almost all of whom I've known personally have been Christians), it is quite possible to have all those qualities and still be Christian.

Of course, when the topic of religion comes up, I'm not going to lie to them and tell them I think Christianity is a great and wonderful thing. But if the topic doesn't come up, I'm not necessarily going to bring it up just so I can pick a fight.

Jamie

Splat

It's clear from most of the posts above (including mine) that we all make decisions to respect individuals as people independently of their beliefs, if only as a means of keeping peace. And I suppose that's really the only thing we can do, unless we're willing to just be assholes for the sake of intellectual purity. Fortunately, few of us are.

Only if she were really out of it and I thought the benefit of a short term lie might get her the help she needed (e.g., if she were truly psychotic and I thought I could get her to a hospital by telling her we were taking her to a safe house). But she isn't that ill.

As it turned out (and this is really a SL&S topic), being honest with her--repeatedly telling her that there is no real basis for her fears--finally convinced her that she really was delusional and needed help.

If I can do the same for Christians, it seems disrespectful not to do so.

[ December 11, 2002: Message edited by: Splat ]</p>