Biff the unclean

SLD Can you elaborate and get us some direct quotes, or give me other references to this copycat conversion story on the web or otherwise?
Copycat story? You'll have a little trouble calling it a copycat as Euripides wrote The Bacchae more than 500 years before Acts hit the presses.And the story itself was already over a thousand years old when Euripides got his mitts on it.
Here's a copy of the script
<a href="http://www.bartleby.com/8/8/" target="_blank">http://www.bartleby.com/8/8/</a>
The action is that Pentheus is mistaken about the Bacchae who are the worshipers of Dionysos (the god who turned water into wine) and he heads off on a road near Damascus to do them harm. Dionysos appears to him and he has an epiphany. The speech that Dionysos makes to Pentheus to change his heart is the famous "kicking at pricks" that Jesus makes to Paul 500 years later.
It's one of the most famous plays of all time. I'm surprised you don't know it. The term "deus ex machina" comes from this play because at the climatic moment the actor playing Dionysos "appears by magic" with the help of a spring loaded trap door.

Edited to suggest you look at this thread
<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000683" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000683</a>

[ November 18, 2002: Message edited by: Biff the unclean ]</p>

Vorkosigan

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Biff the unclean:


The action is that Pentheus is mistaken about the Bacchae who are the worshipers of Dionysos (the god who turned water into wine) and he heads off on a road near Damascus to do them harm. Dionysos appears to him and he has an epiphany. The speech that Dionysos makes to Pentheus to change his heart is the famous "kicking at pricks" that Jesus makes to Paul 500 years later.

Great post, Biff. You can marry my daughter anytime.

What is the exact sequence in The Bacchae that this action takes place?

Vorkosigan

Vorkosigan

I tend to agree with this. Another brilliant Christian innovation is a "twin utopia" in which things were fine before the Fall, and will be again after The End. The location of Utopia in the future was a real advance. In most other civs, the Golden Age is always in the past. Christianity promised on in the future.

Vorkosigan

Ted Hoffman

Amos :...The descent of the HS resolves the trinity and crowns Mary queen of heaven and earth.

Intensity : Mary was not involved in any clear way. There was JBap and Jesus - how does Mary come into the picture?

Amos : In the absence of Mary (who is not a fallen angel) the HS must suffice to allow satan to guide us between good and evil with the HS as stand-by in case things go wrong.

Intensity : Is the HS a fallen Angel?
Why do you say in the absence of Mary - wasnt Mary alive at the time the dove was descending?

How does Satan guide us between good and evil and how do you know this?
Why do we need to be guided by satan?

Amos : Here Polycarp's problem. Jesus Christ is not an "eternal high priest" because we must take the place of Jesus and place ourselves on the cross to be raised with him and reign with the father in heaven.

Intensity : Polycarp could say the same thing about you. What makes you think you have the correct handle on the trinity?

Amos : Polycarp spoke like the second beast in Revelation 13, which came from the earth and therefore worshipped the first beast that came from the sea.

Intensity : And what did the Beast say? To whom did it speak?
Do you know this "beast"/ cherubim was borrowed from Ancient Assyria?

Amos : The fact is that we must be reborn from the [celestial] sea, do our 42 months in purgatory where we write our own Gospel, and rise to become one of God's holy people.

Intensity : Why do we need to become one of Gods holy people and what is the alternative?
How do you know this?

Amos : The birth of Christ is symbolized by the return of the dove with an olive branch.

Intensity : What did it represent in Ancient Assyria/ Babylon?

Amos : Without John the dove could/would not descent and at best maybe leave some droppings behind.

Intensity : So how did it know when to descend? was it watching and waiting?

Biff the unclean

V What is the exact sequence in The Bacchae that this action takes place?
Well there's a big lead up, but if you are looking for the show stopping "kicking at pricks" part that's around line 936.

NOGO

The Word?
The messenger God?

This really struck a chord

Hebrews 1
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say,
"(YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"?
And again,
"I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"?


Why is the Son of God being compared to the angels?

Angels are messengers ... the word and HS are also messengers.

In John Jesus says that the words are not his but come from the father.

Could it be that Jesus received the HS in the form of a dove right after his baptism. So when Jesus says that the words come from above he meant from the messenger God, ie the HS.

During Jesus' baptism the voice that was heard "This is my son ..." was perhaps refering to the HS, ie the messenger God.

In Hebrews 1 the messenger God is compared to other messengers ie the angels.

Amos

</strong>

Mary is the queen of angels and in charge of the HS. She is the one who sends the HS down to earth when the need arises (earth is conscious mind and heaven is subconscious mind). The descent of the dove indicates that the right and left brain has become one (as in "the father and I are one") and this makes the 'flying' spirit redundant. Soon after the descent of the dove the "desert and temptation" begins to see if indeed the connection between the right and left brain was made and the wedding in Cana is to celebrate that the two have become one (foreshadowed already in Gen.2:24). The head waitress was Mary who was behind this all and the second wine is just the promise that the water from the celestial sea (yin period) will be sweeter than even the best wine made during the yang period of life.

I actually think that the genealogy of Jesus in Luke is equal to the Wedding in Cana of John in that knowledge and understanding is very much equal to our liberation from religious indoctrination. This, in turn, is why he promised to destroy and rebuilt the temple and the evidence of this is that in Rev. "the old image of heaven and earth had passed away" now that the truth (new heaven and earth) has been made known. </strong>

Not a fallen angel but an angel send from heaven to earth. The absence of Mary speaks on behalf of her virginity in that she has never had any direct relations in the conscious mind (if virginity is prized the loss of virginity will be at the cost of integrity). It has nothing to do with Mary being alive because the event is metaphysical. </strong>

Satan is the world of our conscious mind out of which we must retain what is good and reject what is not good. Eve is in contact with Mary in the Magdalene/Mary dichotomy where the exchange is made as was promised when the woman saw that the TOK was good for gaining wisdom in the TOL. </strong>

Because I am the guy writing the story. </strong>

The beast is a parable that describes the difference between two kinds of rebirth. From Jn.1:13 we learn that we can be reborn from either carnal desire or from God: "These are they who believe in his name--who were begotten not by blood, nor by carnal desire, not by man's willing it, but by God."

The difference is that those born of God will emerge from the [celestial] sea while those born of carnal desire will re-emerge from the [old] earth.

The first beast had ten diadem studded horns to show victory over the ten commandments (1Jn.3:9)and the seven heads were the product of the rout between the capital sins and the cardinal virtues. It was the lion king, swift like a leopard and strong like a bear. The dragon that persists in the netherworld of this sea had surrendered its power and strongholds (these are the sins of the clan, nation and tribe called Mephis in "WE"). The mortal wound was the stigmata and the 42 months is the time it had spent in purgatory.

The second beast came out of the earth because it was born from carnal desire. It had two horns like a ram to indicate that it was always charged between heaven and hell from where it drew the inspiration to perform great spectacles. These amazing performances were imitations of the first beast and because of their likeness to reality this beast was allowed to become the stronghold of entire nations. From here it was given the mandate of the "The Great Commission" that would lead the entire world astray nonetheless because in itself it must continually renew the face of the earth because it does not know a new heaven or new earth. No transformation (no stigmata) is evidence that no transformation of heaven and earth will follow. In other words, Revelations, will remain a future event.

The number of the man representing the first beast is 666. The number of the 'certain' man representing the second beast is not given and requires some ingenuity to calculate--which now means that those who caution others about the 666 are really wrong in that the 666 is the most welcome number we should ever receive. I think Zamjatin called these people the wanderers of Transavenue 49 singing their halleluia's while lost in the desert (for 40 years instead of 40 days and will die there nonetheless).

No I did not know that the "beast" parable is not original but that does not really matter because the entire bible must be prior to us by nature or it would not be a poem in itself. </strong>

We do not need to become Gods holy people at all. We can deny playing the game spelled out by religion and never even come close to being called to enter the race. The problem with this is that we get older and since meno-pause is native to man we somehow have to make the best of it and this is what religion is all about (meno means 'I remain'--as in I become eternal--and so menopause is the time for us to become eternal).

How do I know this? I don't really know this but am just writing this because it makes sense to me.
</strong>

Same thing except that at that time it was given another name. Christ is just the name attached to it by our mythmaker. I once saw a slavic poem in which it was called PKENTZ (I think). As determined creatures Mary is and always was an influence upon our destiny. The annunciation was the first sign given, which was, to be sure, an inspiration for Mary and just a dream for Joseph. This should tell you who was calling the shots at that time in the life of Jesus-nee-Joseph the dreaming Jew.

[ November 19, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

Pentacular

The "religious" concept of The Trinity came from the old pre-religion observation that man is a trinity, of water, flesh and spirit and that he can not exist without all of these components.Think about it...

So, later on the more devious ones who wished to pervert the philosophy of reasoning minds and create belief systems "adapted" the concept when they created deities in their own image....ie god had to be also a trinity.The father, son and holy spirit came from this ancient and accurate observation. The rest is belief. The word "Abracadabra" means "Father, son and holy spirit"....I'm working on memory for the exact spelling but it goes something like "Ab/Aba(father), Ben (son), ruach a cadesh/hadesh??"

Biff the unclean

So how many examples of Pre-Christian trinities does that make so far? Five, six maybe?
Is there the least bit of logic in thinking that a religious concept; after showing up in numerous religions; becomes original only when it reaches Christianity?

lpetrich

How is that supposed to be the case???