HRG

Justice Potter Stewart: "I know it when I see it".

HRG.

Polycarp

Quote:

Originally posted by Vorkosigan: Where do we contradict each other? Some lists of criteria are more exhaustive than others. Offhand I don't see any out and out contradictions.

Quote:

Where do we contradict each other? Some lists of criteria are more exhaustive than others. Offhand I don't see any out and out contradictions.

LOL… You sound like a fundie who’s trying to reconcile Biblical contradictions. C’mon… Just read them like you read the Bible (critically).

You and Madmax said Bigfoot is an extraordinary claim, but Toto and FreetoThink said it was not extraordinary.

Polycarp

Quote:

Originally posted by NOGO: Now tell us what in Christianity do atheists consider extraordinary and you don't?

Your whole post can be boiled down to this statement, because otherwise we seem to agree on most other items. I believe some type of god exists, you do not. This simple difference plays a huge role in classifying claims as “extraordinary” or “ordinary”. If you believed in some type of god, then claims that now seem quite extraordinary to you would be less extraordinary.

Polycarp

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Originally posted by NOGO: You are implying that if two or more people give a different version of something then only one of them can be right and the rest must be wrong. Do you apply such logic to the bible?

Yes. The bible has errors in it.

Polycarp

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeptical: I'm curious, what, in your mind, would be enough evidence to convince you of, say, Buddha's being physically raised to heaven? If we had 4 written records believed to have been written about 40-60 years after his supposed "raising" by 4 people who supposedly actually witnessed it? If not, what additional evidence would be required? My guess is that no evidence would be enough for you, although I fully admit that I might be wrong.

Four written records (they need not be by eyewitnesses) written 40-60 years after the alleged event would be a starting point. I'd also need to see some type of evidence that people believed something miraculous about The Buddha very near to his life (either during his life or within a few years after his death), not long after. I'd have to evaluate all of the available evidence before saying whether I'd believe the claim. The quality of sources, their transmission, etc. would all be scrutinized. Unfortunately, as you know, there is nothing like this in existence for the story of The Buddha.

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I thought that the whole point of your "evidence" thread was that in reality the evidence of the NT is far too scant to convince anyone who doesn't already want to believe it? Or did I miss the point?

You're half-right. My point is that the evidence of the NT is probably worthless (let alone "too scant") as a means of convincing non-theists to believe in Christianity. Without belief in some type of god, documents written 2000 years ago do nothing.

Vorkosigan

LOL… You sound like a fundie who’s trying to reconcile Biblical contradictions. C’mon… Just read them like you read the Bible (critically).

[b]You and Madmax said Bigfoot is an extraordinary claim, but Toto and FreetoThink said it was not extraordinary.[/qb]

I thought you were talking about criteria, not specific claims. It was my error to assume we were having a conversation that would explore why there is wide agreement on some claims, but not others, and not trying to one-up each other. My mistake. I won't make it in the future.

So what's your point? It is clear that all of us agree any claim that violates natural law is by definition extraordinary. Where we differ is on claims in which natural law does not appear to be violated, such as Bigfoot. That doesn't apply to any of the discussions about god, which is why we display unanimity on the topic of whether god is an extraordinary claim.

Vorkosigan

[ July 04, 2002: Message edited by: Vorkosigan ]</p>

Polycarp

Quote:

Originally posted by Vorkosigan: So what's your point? It is clear that all of us agree any claim that violates natural law is by definition extraordinary. Where we differ is on claims in which natural law does not appear to be violated, such as Bigfoot. That doesn't apply to any of the discussions about god, which is why we display unanimity on the topic of whether god is an extraordinary claim.

This is where the conversation can not progress to the next stage on this board. The moderator will chastise me again for straying from BC & A territory. Having said that, I'll just say that there is no way for skeptics to prove that the claim "God exists" is extraordinary. It's an entirely subjective realm (as demonstraded above) in which one group (skeptics) happens to agree amongs themselves that one claim (god) is extraordinary. I don't think this gives skeptics the right to monopolize the realm of "extraordinary-ness". Theists can assert the same thing about agnosticism or atheism and say that they are extraordinary claims.

If god exists, then claims of miracles are less extraordinary (albeit still uncommon).

NOGO

You are being evasive.

First, even if I believed in God miracles would still be extraordinary to me. They are to you as well since you admit that Mohammad splitting of the moon is extraordinary. Yet Mohammad claims to be a prophet of God. So all Muslims stand on an equal footing to you with regard to criteria for extraordinary claims. Put another way is, since Mohammad believes in God why then is moon splitting so extraordinary to you?

If Jesus had split the moon would you think that it was extraordinary?

Please give examples of things which are no longer extraordinary to you because you believe in some God.

Second, even if I believed in God I would still not be a christian. I am not a sinner in need of salvation. I don't believe that there can be no forgiving of sin without blood. I don't believe in surrogate punishment. Jesus on the cross, to me, is a barbaric form of human sacrifice to Yahweh. I don't buy the original sin. Jesus never claimed to be on a mission to undo the original sin. He never talked about it at all. etc..

NOGO

Errors would be acceptable. It is far more than that.

It is safe to say that the resurrection is central to Christianity. When two accounts of the resurrection (Mt and Jn) differ to the point where they can be said to be totally different and contradictory then we are not dealing with just error.

One, the other or both of these stories were fabricated.

Do you recognize this?

Kosh

I stand corrected. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />