Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Proxima Centauri · 04-12-2002, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by B.Shack:


__________________________________________________

I have watched chimpanzees in the Gombe reserve on television. It has sometimes seemed to me that chimpanzees have the rudiments of what evolved into human morality.

Chimpanzee morality is a twisted morality by any acceptable decent standards. One thing which it seems to include is that it is right to attack courageously chimpanzees from other tribes, kill them if they are isolated, and take over their land.

How often have humans followed twisted morality like that? Remember Hitler's Germany. Remember the Old Testament massacres. Many of the OT massacres are unrealistic but one fact stands out a mile. The (human) writers of the OT would have aproved of such massacres if they had happened. Almost certainly smaller scale massacres did happen.

I'm waiting to be told the above is unscientific. Other explanations of the chimpanzee behaviour are possible. Chimps who weaken other chimp tribes and take over their land are adding to the resources of their own tribe so they and their relatives can pass on their own genes more successfully.

I'm in no way suggesting that we should behave like 'Nazi' chimpanzees. I'm trying to work out how human morality might have evolved. If we don't look after others from our community then when we are in trouble nobody will look after us. Moral behaviour also helps us to survive.

Fortunately we have more choice in what moral code we accept than do chimpanzees. We can choose to reject clearly harmful moral codes like Nazi morality or Old Testament morality.

Forum leader, please deleat one of these two, I don't know why the computer copied it.

[ April 12, 2002: Message edited by: B.Shack ]

Sojourner553 · 04-21-2002, 02:41 PM

Although animals have been observed to grieve for the deaths of other animals, there is no evidence they have any mental capacity for applying this information to APPREHEND THEIR OWN FUTURE DEATH.

Animals do not, on their own accord, appear to engage in prayers or other religious rituals to worship some spiritual being. Certain animals, such as dogs, do appear to look up to their human masters as "gods"--because they (incorrectly) perceive that their human masters have the power to grant them all their needs and wants.

____________________________________________

I watched William Buckley on television once candidly admit that it bothered him that if people's suffering on earth was a "test" for eternal life, why was it that animals had to suffer as well?

For the law of the jungle is a cruel place, and animals suffer the ravages of disease, drought, and battles -- similar to the humans. I always thought Disney's fantasy portrayal of the animal world was a much nicer place than the real thing.

Sojourner

[ April 21, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]

KeithHarwood · 04-21-2002, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Haran:
(1) We don't know whether animals have any concept of God or not...

My daughter's dog thinks I am God.

My wife's cat thinks he is God.

On the whole I prefer cats.

Joe Nobody · 04-22-2002, 08:08 AM

Come on, didn't any of you see the Animal Planet special on Lassie? You guys were all watching the Real Eve Yesterday huh? Well, to recap the major points for those that missed it:

Lassie was certianly a moral, God-fearing dog. There was an atheist and a Christian drowning in a lake one day and thinking quickly, Lassie saved the atheist who later went on to become saved. Along with the heroic deed of saving an atheist from eternal damnation, Lassie's theological position defied current social norms and delineated a new view which allowed individuals to be accepted as equals. Lassie lobbied for social reform and accepted even cats as equals. In one interview Lassie is on record saying, "I just wanted to accept and love my neighbor as myself and do unto others as I would have them do unto me." When asked how the decision to save the drowning atheist that day instead of the Christian was made, Lassie woofed out, "I remembered what Jesus said. He said it is not the well who need a doctor and I believe him. So following the pattern set by Jeus, I chose to save the atheist."

The Deacon book Bill is referencing is part of a conpiracy to cover up the true Lassie story.

Check your local listings for the time and date of the next re-showing.

Joe Nobody

Marduk · 04-22-2002, 08:57 AM

Did someone mention elephants? Just caught a tidbit on TV about an elephant at the Texas Zoo that they
taught to paint (her paintings go for over $3000) however it's the reason they taught her to paint I found
relevant to this thread as well as the dog thread.
The elephant was bored, it would save it's food and take it down to the pond, lay out a trail of food from
the pond and stand and wait for a duck to follow the food trail. Then she would stomp on the ducks! They
tried putting out watermellons instead but she was uninterested so they taught her to paint to mend her
nasty duck squishing ways. Clearly a complex thought process involved. Maybe the ducks were not worshipping the elephant? Also the lion is "king" of the jungle, is that not unlike a god?

Sojourner553 · 04-22-2002, 09:00 AM

Quote:

The Deacon book Bill is referencing is part of a conpiracy to cover up the true Lassie story.

Check your local listings for the time and date of the next re-showing.

Joe Nobody

Smile. Obviously not ALL of the animal fantasy is on Disney. (Although I LIKE Disney! But I also try not to confuse fantasy from reality--in my entertainment or religion.)

BTW -- I got lost in your moral: does it mean that Lassie wouldn't save the guy from drowning again in the future since he is no longer an atheist? You have obviously delved into fantasy, here.

I think Haran's original post was concerning reality though!

Sojourner

[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]

Radcliffe Emerson · 04-22-2002, 09:03 AM

I watched The Real Eve last night. I'm sure the fundamentalists/creationists are outraged at the program.
The audacity of those scientists, proving that the human race started in Africa and everyone on earth has the same DNA in them.
The nerve of them to counteract the biblical comments about blacks bearing the mark of Ham, and the Jews being chosen, etc.
I hope everyone is seeing the sarcasm in these comments.

Sojourner553 · 04-22-2002, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by marduck:
 Also the lion is "king" of the jungle, is that not unlike a god?

Only humans have "conceived" of lions as "king" of the jungle. Again, this makes good fantasy.

Sojourner

[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]

Veil of Fire · 04-22-2002, 03:37 PM

"Do animals know God?"

God/dess, sure. I don't see why not. Many of them are at least as intelligent/self-aware as we are.

Of course, then again, I freely admit to being the biggest flake on this side of the Mason Dixon Line.

WhiteKnight · 04-22-2002, 05:19 PM

And... the real reason Man concludes animals have no soul? They won't convert.

04-21-2002, 02:41 PM	#22
Sojourner553 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Southern US Posts: 817	Although animals have been observed to grieve for the deaths of other animals, there is no evidence they have any mental capacity for applying this information to APPREHEND THEIR OWN FUTURE DEATH. Animals do not, on their own accord, appear to engage in prayers or other religious rituals to worship some spiritual being. Certain animals, such as dogs, do appear to look up to their human masters as "gods"--because they (incorrectly) perceive that their human masters have the power to grant them all their needs and wants. ____________________________________________ I watched William Buckley on television once candidly admit that it bothered him that if people's suffering on earth was a "test" for eternal life, why was it that animals had to suffer as well? For the law of the jungle is a cruel place, and animals suffer the ravages of disease, drought, and battles -- similar to the humans. I always thought Disney's fantasy portrayal of the animal world was a much nicer place than the real thing. Sojourner [ April 21, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>

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04-22-2002, 08:08 AM	#24
Joe Nobody Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Nowhere Posts: 56	Come on, didn't any of you see the Animal Planet special on Lassie? You guys were all watching the Real Eve Yesterday huh? Well, to recap the major points for those that missed it: Lassie was certianly a moral, God-fearing dog. There was an atheist and a Christian drowning in a lake one day and thinking quickly, Lassie saved the atheist who later went on to become saved. Along with the heroic deed of saving an atheist from eternal damnation, Lassie's theological position defied current social norms and delineated a new view which allowed individuals to be accepted as equals. Lassie lobbied for social reform and accepted even cats as equals. In one interview Lassie is on record saying, "I just wanted to accept and love my neighbor as myself and do unto others as I would have them do unto me." When asked how the decision to save the drowning atheist that day instead of the Christian was made, Lassie woofed out, "I remembered what Jesus said. He said it is not the well who need a doctor and I believe him. So following the pattern set by Jeus, I chose to save the atheist." The Deacon book Bill is referencing is part of a conpiracy to cover up the true Lassie story. Check your local listings for the time and date of the next re-showing. Joe Nobody

04-22-2002, 08:57 AM	#25
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	Did someone mention elephants? Just caught a tidbit on TV about an elephant at the Texas Zoo that they taught to paint (her paintings go for over $3000) however it's the reason they taught her to paint I found relevant to this thread as well as the dog thread. The elephant was bored, it would save it's food and take it down to the pond, lay out a trail of food from the pond and stand and wait for a duck to follow the food trail. Then she would stomp on the ducks! They tried putting out watermellons instead but she was uninterested so they taught her to paint to mend her nasty duck squishing ways. Clearly a complex thought process involved. Maybe the ducks were not worshipping the elephant? Also the lion is "king" of the jungle, is that not unlike a god?

04-22-2002, 09:03 AM	#27
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	I watched The Real Eve last night. I'm sure the fundamentalists/creationists are outraged at the program. The audacity of those scientists, proving that the human race started in Africa and everyone on earth has the same DNA in them. The nerve of them to counteract the biblical comments about blacks bearing the mark of Ham, and the Jews being chosen, etc. I hope everyone is seeing the sarcasm in these comments.

04-22-2002, 03:37 PM	#29
Veil of Fire Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 451	"Do animals know God?" God/dess, sure. I don't see why not. Many of them are at least as intelligent/self-aware as we are. Of course, then again, I freely admit to being the biggest flake on this side of the Mason Dixon Line.

04-22-2002, 05:19 PM	#30
WhiteKnight Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: League City, TX Posts: 55	And... the real reason Man concludes animals have no soul? They won't convert.

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