Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ought Naught · 09-19-2002, 08:40 AM

I've known four people who've tried acupuncture. My next door neighbor went in an effort to stop smoking. He's still smoking. My mother went for the pain that she was suffering after a back surgery. The acupuncture didn't do anything for her, but stretches and deep-tissue massages made a world of difference. One friend went for chronic upper back and neck pain and another went for lower back problems. Neither of them noticed any improvement. I've seen acupuncture fail with enough people now that I would probably have to exhaust all of my other options before I would try it.

Mad Kally · 09-19-2002, 08:42 AM

From the National Council Against Health Fraud.
<a href="http://www.ncahf.org/pp/acu.html" target="_blank"> NCAHF position paper on acupunture:</a>

Quote:

NCAHF believes:

Acupuncture is an unproven modality of treatment;
Its theory and practice are based on primitive and fanciful concepts of health and disease that bear no relationship to present scientific knowledge;
Research during the past twenty years has failed to demonstrate that acupuncture is effective against any disease;
Perceived effects of acupuncture are probably due to a combination of expectation, suggestion, counter- irritation, operant conditioning, and other psychological mechanisms;
The use of acupuncture should be restricted to appropriate research settings;
Insurance companies should not be required by law to cover acupuncture treatment; and
Licensure of lay acupuncturists should be phased out.

Proposed Mechanisms of Action
The following mechanisms have been proposed to explain acupuncture's presumed action on pain:

Release of endorphins (narcotic-like substances produced by the body). Naloxone, which reverses the effects of administered opiates, has been reported to reduce the analgesia produced by acupuncture. However, some studies show no reversal. Even if endorphin release were a real mechanism for acupuncture action, there are simpler and non invasive ways to cause endorphin release.
The "gate theory." This suggests that if pain fibers carry impulses from an acupuncture site, impulses from a painful body organ will be unable to reach the brain. However, there is no anatomical or physiological basis for this explanation.
Diversion. Attention can be diverted from a symptom by stimulating or irritating another part of the body.
Psychological mechanisms. These include suggestion, operant conditioning and other psychological mechanisms, any of which may be involved in the placebo effect.

There is nothing wrong with the placebo effect, it works quite well sometimes.

[ September 19, 2002: Message edited by: Mad Kally ]

Pseudonymph · 09-19-2002, 08:54 AM

I'm not saying that it works for everybody. I am saying that everyone I've taked to that has had it have had great results. If you havent then well, let me speak for people who have tried chiropractic with no luck.

Many people swore by it and I tried it and it did nothing. At all.

But for some people it does help so thats great.

What is peoples aversion to something if it helps them and has literally no side effects.

Mad Kally · 09-19-2002, 08:58 AM

Quote:

But for some people it does help so thats great.

I agree. The placebo effect is great! I went to an acupuncturist myself once and it quickly relieved my back pain.

Pseudonymph · 09-19-2002, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad Kally:


I agree. The placebo effect is great! I went to an acupuncturist myself once and it quickly relieved my back pain.

How do you know it was the placebo effect? I mean how do you scientifically know it was?

If you honestly knew going in that is was junk science(or not science at all) then it could not have possibly been the placebo effect becuase you would not have believed it to work.

If you think it's crap NOW...I challenge you to go back for your next pain and see if it doesnt help. If nothing else to satisfy your own curiosity.

Oh and BTW I was referring to chriropractics in that paragraph you quoted.

[ September 19, 2002: Message edited by: SirenSpeak ]

Corwin · 09-19-2002, 09:07 AM

So Noise... I guess you don't take aspirin because it's based on 'primitive and fanciful ideas of natrual harmony between willow trees and humans?' And it does absolutely nothing to cure any diseases?

Dr Rick · 09-19-2002, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SirenSpeak:
I'm trying not to offer anectodal evidence. But I've known upwards of 25 people...

This evidence is antecdotal. It is a testimonial and is not verifiable.

One may try to argue that it is valid, but the argument would still be a defense of antecdotal evidence.

Quote:

Originally posted by buddhagrrl:
Yay! I'm convinced! Thanks, SirenSpeak and peteyh! Just what I was hoping to hear.

It is not surprising that someone was convinced by the antecdotal evidence that she was hoping to hear. Many people are convinced of the power of prayer through such reasoning; they hear the good word and the inspirational stories of faith-healing that they want to believe.

Rick

Mad Kally · 09-19-2002, 09:18 AM

Quote:

How do you know it was the placebo effect? I mean how do you scientifically know it was?

It was before I went to college for four years and received a science degree. There's nothing wrong with my back and there never was. It was psychosomatic pain. I just believed it would work! That's why people stand up from their wheelchairs and walk at a Benny Hinn faith healing session. The wonderful placebo effect and the endorphins that go along with it..

Corwin · 09-19-2002, 09:19 AM

Quote:

This evidence is antecdotal. It is a testimonial and is not verifiable.

And a study would be?

Oh.... that's right. A collection of anecdotes.

Pseudonymph · 09-19-2002, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rbochnermd:


It is not surprising that someone was convinced by the antecdotal evidence that she was hoping to hear. Many people are convinced of the power of prayer through such reasoning; they hear the good word and the inspirational stories of faith-healing that they want to believe.

Rick

Could you be any more patronizing? Even if you tried?

If someone told you a certain resaurant was good, would you demand scientific proof that it was? Or would you just give it a try?

And dont give me that crap that acupuncture is risky...if you have such a hard-on for proof, show me some besides anectdotal (IE from some website) evidence.

And please don't reply with one documented case of a problem...there have been people who die from root canals gone wrong...doesnt stop you does it?

[ September 19, 2002: Message edited by: SirenSpeak ]

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09-19-2002, 08:40 AM	#11
Ought Naught Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Winter of My Discontent Posts: 94	I've known four people who've tried acupuncture. My next door neighbor went in an effort to stop smoking. He's still smoking. My mother went for the pain that she was suffering after a back surgery. The acupuncture didn't do anything for her, but stretches and deep-tissue massages made a world of difference. One friend went for chronic upper back and neck pain and another went for lower back problems. Neither of them noticed any improvement. I've seen acupuncture fail with enough people now that I would probably have to exhaust all of my other options before I would try it.

09-19-2002, 08:54 AM	#13
Pseudonymph Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 813	I'm not saying that it works for everybody. I am saying that everyone I've taked to that has had it have had great results. If you havent then well, let me speak for people who have tried chiropractic with no luck. Many people swore by it and I tried it and it did nothing. At all. But for some people it does help so thats great. What is peoples aversion to something if it helps them and has literally no side effects.

09-19-2002, 09:07 AM	#16
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	So Noise... I guess you don't take aspirin because it's based on 'primitive and fanciful ideas of natrual harmony between willow trees and humans?' And it does absolutely nothing to cure any diseases?

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