Pennywise the clown

The circus of life is keeping this clown very busy indeed! I'll have to let my other threads fall to disrepair due to time contraints. Not enough theists over here...guess I'll stick to quality of quantity. Beep! Beep!

Wolfy:
I agree that the “true” Jesus has been lost in the myth. Short of finding “Q” or some other unknown source documents, there’s really no point in arguing.

[quote]You dont have to be an atheist, to have strong adversions to christianity.
I make no apologies for my disdain for christianity as I feel it has been the root cause of much suffering and death in it's history.
And it is based on a lie.[\QUOTE]

Never said you did. Just said that you sure seem like a strong atheist with foregone conclusions regarding many things. You know, I am starting to wonder that if it’s not the religion or lack of, but the people involved?

You speak of Christianity being the “root of all evil”. Have you ever read “Why Christianity Must Change or Die” by Spong? Michael Shermer has a book out on belief as well (title escapes me). I believe both gentlemen make the observation that religion has also done a lot of good in this world and also provides a lot of people with comfort. Who am I to judge those people or say that they are weak for relying on a system that has also done much good?

Most of the biblical views of women can be attributed to a patriarchal society…the mores of the time.

[quote]Or a victim of mental illness:
2. Suffered from a condition known as Temporal Lobe Epilepsy that results in the symptoms that we understand today as "religious ephiphany" and
NDE's and Alien abduction stories.
I think that Joan of Arc is also included in the list of possible victims of the above disorder.[/QUTOE]

Are you saying I have “rounded the bend”? That I’m as “dizzy as a wet top”? Beep! Beep! Chalking up all religious experience to mental illness is, well, insane! Sure, the “religious experience” or “spiritual” experience may well have a biological grounds. I can live with that. Perhaps religion evolved out of necessity? Again, perhaps we are hard wired for it? Perhaps you are trying to go against your hard wiring?

Perhaps…

Many things can destroy a persons self esteem, the least of which is religion! I’m sorry if you had a bad experience with religion in general, or Christianity in particular—many have. But at one point you have to ask yourself if your becoming as bad as that which you rail against. As for pat and canned answers, well, see me above comments on naturalism and foregone conclusions.

Tut, tut, have you ever considered meditation or tai chi? I’m sensing some negative energy here that’s for sure!

Hmmm, read a copy of that newspaper from the Freedom From Religion Foundation, glide though some of the voice chat forums on the net pertaining to atheism/religion/skepticism, go visit the American Atheists, it would seem to me that there’s sure a lot of elitism, intellectual snobbery, intolerance, and bigotry on both sides of this metaphysical mud-slinging fence. Again, when does one cross that line and become part of the problem that you’re railing against?

Neither is mine. How you get to your “higher power” is your own affair.

Well, I may be seated next to you in this hell that does not exist! Beep! Beep! If so, I have to ask you: Wolfy, do you like pie?



Still, I have met many a Christian who have excellent character and do not "cast ye down to the flames of hell". It is these liberal Christians that I hope succeed in saving Christianity, re-tooling it as it were. I am not of their camp as I do not adhere to the central message of Christianity--I fear it’s too late for me on that account--but I do have respect for those who are working to save it.

Should I suggest turning the other cheek?

Yes, I suppose Christianity is responsible for crime, global warming, pollution, taxes, obesity, shows like Survivor, greed, capitalism, hair loss, alcoholism, mental illness, etc. God a problem? Blame it on Jesus!

Either that or your friends with your boss!

I suggest a nice walk in the desert—very refreshing. Get some of this negative energy out!

On this we agree.

Ah, the Golden rule. I threads through many of the world's great relgions, the least of which is Christianity.

Beep! Beep!

Got to catch the clown car!

Pennywise the clown

Help Wanted:

One editor willing to work for peanuts. Must be able to spellcheck, handle UBB Code, and enjoy pie and seltzer water.

Interested parties may contact me at the circus.

Beep! Beep!

nixon

Just out of morbid curiousity Pennywise: When are you going to tell us about how nice it is that we all float down there (With you)?

sighhswolf

Humm, well penny like I said before I have never been a militant atheist, but the older I get the more I find myself developing a very militant dislike for religion in general and christianity
in particular.
Now why is that you say?
Well lets just look at an example of the new christian liberalism.
Fundamentalists at least make an attempt to follow the Biblical teachings as they are/were written.
For this I give them credit.
My problem with liberal interpretations of Biblical texts is that they can and are twisted to fit the need of the situation by whomever the quote comes from.
I really get sick listening to people who tell me
"Oh thats not really what the text means", in other words--- you have to take it from context and then apply some circular logic and abstract reasoning to arrive at the "TRUE" meaning.
To wit I will usually respond that it is usually pretty damn clear what the verses say.
Ah, but in the very next conversation the same liberal christian will say "Oh no..you cant read into the Biblical texts your own interpretation.
You have to read the texts as they are written", the perpetual two-step.
In other words, "Here, stick this ring in your nose and let us lead you to the truth" (as we see it)
What exists? And how does one know it?
Does the christian god exist? Dont know?
Is it possible for us to know?
Dont know?
Well does religion express truth?
Who knows--depends on which interpretation you happen to adhere to, or what flavor you are partaking of at present.
The average christian cannot seperate metaphysics
and epistemology.
Is "ethics" a science? Is morality objective?
Who really cares, and why should they?
"The Golden Rule" of which you speak was not born of religion.
It was born of the innate instinct for survival.
The religious gene is nothing more than the instinct for survival, not some kind of religious hardwiring.
That is one of the sickening aspects of liberal christianity, the new theories of genetic propensity of the human race to be "hardwired for
religion".
It does not make slavery any more attractive to say that we were genetically designed to be slaves.
Religion was nothing more than an attempt to explain natural events in a form that early humans could understand, it's growth into the
monster it has become has been accomplished through the efforts of some very astute people who recognized it's potential for the accumulation of wealth and power.
Metaphysical Naturalism....yea.
spiritualism
Calvinism
Buddhism
Catholicism
Hinduism
Islamic Fundamentalism
etc. etc. etc., and just exactly what do all the terms have in common?
They are all common forms of expressing thoughts
and advertising those thoughts by labels.
Assign a label and you find a place to belong.
This is not genetic religious hardwiring, it is basic survival skills and learned responses.
One of the first things a child learns is that family is safe.
(in most cases, not in extreme neglect)
It is by choice that humans gravitate to those with whom they share common goals and feel a certain acceptance within the group.
There is no religious undertone to this instinct for survival. The wiring is related to the safety in numbers axiom.
But those who see that it can be profitable for them to encourage this instinct can and do use this predisposition for gain.
And along comes the christians who feel threatened by the muslims who feel threatened by the Hindus, who feel threatened by the Buddhists, who feel threatened by the atheists.....etc.
As a plain old person without labels who doesnt
really belong anywhere, and who really doesnt know a damn thing about philosophy, religion, and
metaphysics, and science, and ancient history I have only what I can see, hear, touch, taste and smell to validate my personal existence.

But I do know when I am being fed a big old line of steaming crap.........because I will be unable to use those attributes listed above to distinguish the reality of the said crap.
Maybe that makes me a naturalist??
Maybe that makes me a f---ing nut, either way it tends to discourage missionaries.
My priorites include being the most loving and caring husband that I am able to be.
To live in a manner that would hopefully preclude the possibility of hurting someone or something unnecessarily or spitefully.
And to allow others the room to involve themselves in the activities they feel the need for.
It has been pointed out to me by an ex-minister
a very good friend, that most people leave the church because they suffer from the common affliction of disenchantment and disillusionment.
It is very common in our world today in the industrialized countries. The expectations of your life as you visualize it early on are not sometimes attainable due to unknowable circumstances, and unforseen pitfalls in your path.
The work and committment you make to those goals
and aspirations if not realized can lead to a tough conflict with reality.
The same is true of religion, you pray, you try to be the best example you can, you study and try to understand the wisdom of those who came before, and you take the road of sacrifice.
But even with the best intentions, and the most
heartfelt prayers and the total committment of your life to god, you may never achieve the enlightenment you seek and you may end up cursing
the same god you once were committed to, for not hearing and not responding to your cries for help.
This from a very good and extremely intelligent
Ex-Minister.

Wolf

Pennywise the clown

For Nixon:

"Very wise of your dad, Nixon, very wise indeed...I am PennyWise, the dancing clown. You, are Nixon. So. Now we know each other, ceee-rect?" (Georgie replaced with Nixon)

"Oh yes, we all float - and when you're down here with us, you'll float too!"

"He saw the shape behind the shape: saw lights, saw an endless crawling hairy thing which was made of light and nothing else, orange light, dead light that mocked life."

"Come on back and we'll see if you remember the simplest thing of all: how it is to be children, secure in belief and thus afraid of the dark."



Wolfy:

May be awhile before I respond, circus has me very busy. Fat lady sat on the sword swallower (that's gotta hurt!) and the damn elephant got loose again! No rest for the wicked...

I dare say I've found someone that's longer winded than! One thing I need to make crystal clear: I am not a Christian, I am not a Christian, I am not a Christian. I do not affirm the trinity, I question Christ's divinity, I do not believe in hell; by default, we're both headed to the same toasty place dear Wolfy so I hope you like to juggle.

Beep! Beep!

I use my brain (what's left of it) to discern what good I can take from Christianity. Despite your grim assessment, there is much good there. Heck, the way I see it Christ was the ultimate hippy. Would talk to anyone, didn't like authority, not a convential thinker, and most important of all: spent 40 days out in the sticks meditating!

You can't buy that for a dollar!

Beep! Beep!

Peace

Duh clown

Pennywise the clown

No time for UBB so read between the brackets dear Wolfy! The fat lady is going to sing again though I fear we need a new sword swallower. Still looking for Dumbo though…

Anyhow, on to your comments:

[Humm, well penny like I said before I have never been a militant atheist, but the older I get the more I find myself developing a very militant dislike for religion in general and christianity in particular.]

In retrospect, strong v. weak may have mislabled you. Militant may be more appropriate. So noted.

[Now why is that you say?
Well lets just look at an example of the new christian liberalism.
Fundamentalists at least make an attempt to follow the Biblical teachings as they are/were written.
For this I give them credit.]

Naw, don’t give’em too much credit. “Literalism” leads to all sorts of nasty things! Beep! Beep!


[My problem with liberal interpretations of Biblical texts is that they can and are twisted to fit the need of the situation by whomever the quote comes from.
I really get sick listening to people who tell me
"Oh thats not really what the text means", in other words--- you have to take it from context and then apply some circular logic and abstract reasoning to arrive at the "TRUE" meaning.
To wit I will usually respond that it is usually pretty damn clear what the verses say.
Ah, but in the very next conversation the same liberal christian will say "Oh no..you cant read into the Biblical texts your own interpretation.
You have to read the texts as they are written", the perpetual two-step.
In other words, "Here, stick this ring in your nose and let us lead you to the truth" (as we see it)]

Really not trying to defend Christianity dear Wolf. Just saying I’ll take the liberal version over the “militant” version. Much better chance for them to think with their melon than there is to apply a literal stance.

[What exists? And how does one know it?
Does the christian god exist? Dont know?
Is it possible for us to know?
Dont know?
Well does religion express truth?
Who knows--depends on which interpretation you happen to adhere to, or what flavor you are partaking of at present.
The average christian cannot seperate metaphysics
and epistemology.]

BTW: the average person cannot either.

[Is "ethics" a science? Is morality objective?
Who really cares, and why should they?
"The Golden Rule" of which you speak was not born of religion.
It was born of the innate instinct for survival.
The religious gene is nothing more than the instinct for survival, not some kind of religious hardwiring.
That is one of the sickening aspects of liberal christianity, the new theories of genetic propensity of the human race to be "hardwired for
religion".]

Hmmm, think some non-christian scientists have suggested this notion too. Don’t know if there’s a gene or not. Will have to wait on science for that one.

[It does not make slavery any more attractive to say that we were genetically designed to be slaves.
Religion was nothing more than an attempt to explain natural events in a form that early humans could understand, it's growth into the
monster it has become has been accomplished through the efforts of some very astute people who recognized it's potential for the accumulation of wealth and power.]

Man, you really do think religion in general and Christianity in particular is bad!

Woof, woof! What Christian peed in your oatmeal?

[Metaphysical Naturalism....yea.
spiritualism
Calvinism
Buddhism
Catholicism
Hinduism
Islamic Fundamentalism
etc. etc. etc., and just exactly what do all the terms have in common?]

They all end in “ism”?

[They are all common forms of expressing thoughts
and advertising those thoughts by labels.
Assign a label and you find a place to belong.
This is not genetic religious hardwiring, it is basic survival skills and learned responses.
One of the first things a child learns is that family is safe.
(in most cases, not in extreme neglect)
It is by choice that humans gravitate to those with whom they share common goals and feel a certain acceptance within the group. There is no religious undertone to this instinct for survival. The wiring is related to the safety in numbers axiom.]

One view dear Wolfy, one view.


[But those who see that it can be profitable for them to encourage this instinct can and do use this predisposition for gain.]

You mean to tell me that all the great world religions our out for nothing more than monetary gain?
I do not agree with your assessment. Granted, unethical (once you define ethics) people can be found everywhere in every belief (or lack of) system.

[And along comes the christians who feel threatened by the muslims who feel threatened by the Hindus, who feel threatened by the Buddhists, who feel threatened by the atheists.....etc.]

I think they all need hugs and a big pie in their face! Beep! Beep!

[As a plain old person without labels who doesnt really belong anywhere, and who really doesnt know a damn thing about philosophy, religion, and metaphysics, and science, and ancient history I have only what I can see, hear, touch, taste and smell to validate my personal existence. ]

Don’t sell yourself short Wolf, I think you’re quite savvy in that which you claim to “not know a damn thing about.”

[But I do know when I am being fed a big old line of steaming crap.........because I will be unable to use those attributes listed above to distinguish the reality of the said crap.
Maybe that makes me a naturalist?? Maybe that makes me a f---ing nut, either way it tends to discourage missionaries.]

Or, you might be the owner of a fertilizer plant!

[My priorites include being the most loving and caring husband that I am able to be.
To live in a manner that would hopefully preclude the possibility of hurting someone or something unnecessarily or spitefully.]

Honorable intentions, no beef here.

[And to allow others the room to involve themselves in the activities they feel the need for.
It has been pointed out to me by an ex-minister a very good friend, that most people leave the church because they suffer from the common affliction of disenchantment and disillusionment.]

To add: abuse also causes people to leave. (speaking from experience btw)

[It is very common in our world today in the industrialized countries. The expectations of your life as you visualize it early on are not sometimes attainable due to unknowable circumstances, and unforseen pitfalls in your path. The work and committment you make to those goals and aspirations if not realized can lead to a tough conflict with reality.]

Which is why I meditate! Beep! Beep!

[The same is true of religion, you pray, you try to be the best example you can, you study and try to understand the wisdom of those who came before, and you take the road of sacrifice.
But even with the best intentions, and the most heartfelt prayers and the total committment of your life to god, you may never achieve the enlightenment you seek and you may end up cursing the same god you once were committed to, for not hearing and not responding to your cries for help. ]

I gave up cursing god or religion though I might yet need to me “committed”! I guess you can either make lemons or lemonade. I have finally decided to choose lemonade—with a wee nip of vodka!



[This from a very good and extremely intelligent
Ex-Minister.]

I could see your minister and raise you a few practicing pastors as well but I don’t much care for poker.

Duh clown!

sighhswolf

Well at least you arent claiming to be something you arent Penny.
Dont mind me...........I'm crazy ...ask anyone!!
Go ahead ask em ...
They will say, yep--he's crazy...and a post slut too !
Wolf