Doctor X

Must-not-post-about-pontine-tumors-suffering-children-and-the-non-existence-evil-irrelevence-incomptence -of-deities. . . .

Must-not-post-about-pontine-tumors-suffering-children-and-the-non-existence-evil-irrelevence-incomptence -of-deities. . . .

--J.D.

Wayne Delia

That, of course, immediately begs the question of Adam and Eve. They were punished, in fact all of their descendents cursed with what Catholics imagine as "original sin," due to nothing more than what the Bible describes in Genesis 3:13 as the serpent (Satan) beguiling, or tricking, Eve. According to your exegesis, that doesn't count as a sin. Further, you've already been corrected that Adam and Eve did not possess the knowledge of good and evil required for their offense to qualify as a sin. Their sin was simply acquiring the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:22), and God punished that sin by cursing the serpent (3:14-15), Eve (3:16), Adam (3:17-19), and everyone else (1 Corinthians 15:22).

If God is not condemning mankind because Adam and Eve did not sin (according to your working definition), then why is Christianity even necessary?

Trust me - on whether Adam and Eve "knew" they sinned, you WILL lose that argument.

WMD

Wayne Delia

This is the argument you cannot win.

Your own operating definition of sin is any action which is done with the knowledge that the action is evil. The obvious problem was that Adam and Eve did not, could not possess that knowledge until they had eaten from the aptly-named Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Genesis 3:22 explicitly claims that man had acquired that knowledge as a result of eating from that tree. Until that time, they may have known that God told them not to eat from it, but they had absolutely no way of knowing that disobeying God was evil. So, when faced with an alternative choice offered by the serpent - "go ahead and eat it, you won't die as God said you would" (which turned out to be correct), it was an entirely morally neutral decision. They - and, apparently, all of humanity - proceeded to be cursed, condemned, and (if not "saved") eternally punished in hell over a sin which they didn't even know was wrong to do - because God created them that way.

Your God sounds more and more like a Mafia mobster running a protection racket.

WMD

Wayne Delia

Technically, God kicked Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden because God was afraid that they'd also eat from the other tree - the Tree of (Eternal) Life, and thus become equal in power to God Himself.

So, essentially, Adam and Eve were banished from Eden for trying to be God-like. In other areas of Christianity, that's the whole idea for living an exemplary life. Strange, innit?

WMD

SignOfTheCross

Knowledge of good and evil isn't necessarily a prerquisite for sin. God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of knowledge, they did, they knowingly disobeyed God, they sinned.

Peace,
SOTC

ax

Sure, not knowing that you have sinned, doesn't mean you have.
It's like eating beef and thinking it's chiken.
BUT, it is UNFAIR to punish someone on that premise.
Although I must admit that the topic is getting derailed.

Calzaer

Compare:

And

How is anyone supposed to have a rational discussion with you when you so blatantly contradict yourself and expect us to take you seriously?

Wyz_sub10

You're missing the point. If they had no knowledge of what consititutes right and wrong, they would not have known disobedience was a bad thing.

I know this may sound counterintuitive to you, but remember that Christianity claims that eating from the tree is where humanity acquired knowledge of sin.

Let me use an example I've used before - my cat is not allowed on the kitchen table. He sometimes gets up there when we're not around, but when he here's one of us coming, he quickly jumps off.

The cat has no idea that it's "wrong" to be there. He certainly has no clue as to why he shouldn't be there. He does know, however, that when he's there and we're there, he gets a less-than-favourable reaction.

Adam and Eve didn't even have that much to go on.

Wayne Delia

Not according to SignOfTheCross, who earlier stated "if one has sinned without knowing they have sinned, God will not hold them responsible for the sin." Adam and Eve did not know that what they did was wrong, because they hadn't yet eaten from the aptly-named Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Rather than God not holding it against them, God punished them and held it against every one of their descendents throughout history. Seems like you can't be any more wrong than you are.

God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of knowledge, they did, they knowingly disobeyed God, they sinned.

But did they know it was a sin to disobey God? They didn't know any difference between right and wrong until it was too late (in that particular instance), so the decision they made, from their perspective, was morally neutral.

Peace,
SOTC

Knowledge,
WMD

ax

Hmmmm, I feel like quoting another user (glass soul) here: