livius drusus

Well, Cleftone certainly crapped all over the childfree. Here's a few quotes for you:
Now, I may not be the Dalai Lama, but I have a high enough spiritual consciousness to see that these statements are not simple "expressions of joy in parenting," but rather nauseating examples of the kind of mistreatment LadyShea was talking about in her post. I would also like to point out that not one of the parents posting on this thread, including yourself DRFseven, took issue with any of the above quotes. In fact, you didn't even recollect that they were on this thread at all. I suspect that's why LadyShea called shenanigans on you.

I have refrained from posting to this thread because I have never wanted children and living in the South, I've been exposed to the full spectrum of parental condescension more than I care to describe. But even where detailed descriptions of ovaries and uterii are casually tossed around and breeding is seen as essential to one's femininity, I have never heard anyone talk the kind of smack Cleftone did above.

[ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: livius drusus ]</p>

MassAtheist

livius - your criticism is fair and appropriate. I did not notice cleftone's comments on the first pass because I skimmed most of the post. Not that I agree with cleftone, but I would like to adress the context of the quotes you pointed out.

Immediately preceding this, cleftone said
I think (could be wrong) the point is that all children represent the future of society. Therefore, everyone - parent or not - needs to take an interest in the lives of children. To paraphrase, anyone who doesn't take an interest in the future of society is immature and selfish.


To be fair, cleftone premised this paragraph with "Here's one that's bound to piss some of you off". You had fair warning.

Again, I'm not passing any judgement on the original remarks, just putting them in context. In any case, I don't know if I'd classify it as "crapp[ing] all over the childfree".

Also note that cleftone defended non-parents:

Jamie_L

A comment:

What really is driving this animosity is 1) a lack of understanding on both sides and 2) a lack of respect on at least one side (the parents side).

For me personally, I cannot imagine MY life (not anyone else's) being complete without a family of my own. My experiences with my children have been so life-altering (and completely beyond my expectations) that I feel that MY life (not anyone else's) would be less fulfilled if I had never had children.

I expect most parents feel the same. However, because of these very feelings, we have NO IDEA what people who do not want children feel or think. It is arrogant for us to presume that because we think or feel something, others feel it as well. Personally, I do have a curiousity about what people think and feel who do not want kids. But this is merely from an information standpoint. Since I can't comprehend myself, I'm curious to hear the other side. But having heard the other side, it would be inappropriate, insensitive, and rude of me to tell that person that what they feel is wrong.

You do not understand the power of my feelings. I do not understand the power of yours. No one is right. No one is wrong. It's when we start making value judgements about these two positions that people get pissed.

Anyone who says having children is a worthless pursuit will have me in their face arguing with them. Anyone who says having children is not worthwhile for THEM to pursue is a person making a choice about their lives. More power to them.

Jamie

livius drusus

I noted the context at the time, and chose not to reply then in part because of it. However, when DRFseven asked for examples in the thread of what LadyShea was talking about, I felt Cleftone's posts (and the complete absence of parental responses to them) could not be ignored any longer.
I'm sure that was Cleftone's point, and as Pompous Bastard pointed out, we non-parents support children in a myriad ways: taxes, charity, and voluteer work among others. I have covered for many a co-worker who had days off for dependent illness while I have gotten to take no more than an hour off to have my sweet ferret euthanized. I would not revoke these benefits, don't get me wrong (although a little consideration for our needs wouldn't be amiss), but my labour is certainly a contribution I make unselfishly to the future of society. It just doesn't involve my reproductive organs.
The fact that he knew before writing it that it would be insulting and inflammatory hardly mitigates the offense. Quite the opposite, in fact. In this case, the context underscores Cleftone's willful disregard for the sensibilities of the childfree. I know I felt crapped on, and I think LadyShea and Pompous Bastard might have detected a little whiff of Clef's bowels themselves.

As for these quotes: They seem backhanded at best. He claims to understand and sometimes even share our indifference and selfishness. I can't say that warms the cockels of my heart.

I appreciate your trying to explain his position more thoroughly, MassAtheist, but I would have preferred to see a parent take issue with his assumptions instead.

Viti

DFRseven...rather than edit my post I will apologize for my vehemence.

I was quite upset that you didn't even seem to notice the quotes by cleftone that livius drusus pointed out. I realize you did not make these statements and am sorry I took my anger out on you.

This is an emotional subject (almost as bad as the abortion issue!) with strong feelings on both sides. I had just spent the evening with my niece who is a big part of my life and was feeling rather indignant.

livius drusus thank you for your defense and keen insight...you nailed my feelings and used the word shenanigans...you're my new hero

MassAtheist

You are, of course, quite correct. This is one area that I always felt cheated by before I was a parent (working 60-70 huors/week while parents worked 40). I've only been a parent for 4 months and I have taken advantage of the extra time off on numerous occasions. How quickly I forget...

This certainly could have helped to avoid some bad feelings. It's so hard to see these things from the other side. As a parent, I didn't pick up on what cleftone said. Even re-reading it, it's hard for me to see how one would be seriously offended by it. Hard, but not impossible. I will work harder at this in the future.

Thanks for bringing this up. I, for one, appreciate it.

Hobbs

Jamie L, I think you did a good job in summarizing the problem here.

livius drusus, I assumed that post was what LadyShea was referring to. I thought about responding to it, but I had already said some things about being able to be happy without kids, etc. Also, I could see where that post was coming from, but I think it was a poor job of expressing that perspective, and that people could easily see it as rather inflammatory. I wasn't quite sure how to respond to it, so I didn't. But Jamie L has given me a good way to start.

To add to what Jamie L said: yes, most parents (as far as I can tell) do think that their children are the single most "happiness creating" part of their lives. And it is easy to assume that this would be the case for those who do not have children, too. But parents and non-parents are not randomly selected groups. Most parents had their children because they wanted to. At least many non-parents do not have children because they do not want them. Given that, why would a parent think that a voluntary non-parent would necessarily be happier upon becoming a parent? Perhaps they have evaluated themselves accurately, and recognized that they would not find parenthood to be as fulfilling or appropriate to themselves as, say, a life dedicated to an environmental, social, political, or whatever cause? True, these don't necessarily have to conflict, but children can take up quite a lot of time and effort which could be used for other causes. I've heard from children of parents dedicated to such causes who wished they'd had parents who were a little more selfishly focused on their own families. (Of course, some of these non-parentally oriented parents are focused on even more narrowly selfish personal priorities, too, but that's certainly not always the case, and even when it is, it is better for such people to recognize this about themselves and not to become parents.)

And for those parents who really really wanted to become parents, for whom it was very important to become parents, why the goddamned hell would they risk hurting infertile people by utterly insensitive remarks about their "choice" not to have children? Can't they think of what they would feel like if they hadn't been able to have a child?

And even those who can have children and are aware that it would be, for them, the source of their greatest joy, may still decide not to have children. As I mentioned in my first post, the primary reason (among others) I was so hesitant to become a parent was that, while I recognized that there is nothing better than having a child (at least for most people, anyway), there is nothing worse than losing a child. I was quite satisfied with a happy life without any children. Why would I want to risk going through what my wife's grandparents went through when they lost a 9-year-old daughter, a loss from which they never fully recovered even after watching their grandchildren reach adulthood?

Yes, I'm thrilled by being a parent. But it is constantly tempered by the awareness of what could happen. I won't be able to say that parenthood has really made me unambiguously and uncontaminatedly happy until I am on my deathbed and my son is a happy, healthy, independent adult (and hopefully a grandfather himself).

Those who do not, or cannot, have children will never have to deal with that worry. I think I could deal with any other loss. I expect to lose my own parents. I may lose my wife, to death or divorce (though the latter, fortunately, appears extremely unlikely). I may lose my job, my house, my health, etc. But I think I could find a way to deal with and overcome any of those losses. My son, however, is a different story.

You have to give up a lot, and you have to risk a lot, to become a parent. I can understand why someone would choose not to be a parent, or how someone who cannot become a parent can still manage to have a fully satisfying and happy life. I almost remained a non-parent myself. And I cannot yet say that I made the best choice. If anyone is interested, I'll let you know when I figure it out, which will be just before I die.

livius drusus

Jamie_L, great post and I agree wholeheartedly. MassAtheist, thank you for showing us the respect Jamie was talking about. LadyShea, you know I'm with you all the way.

If I were HelenSL I'd be calling for a group hug, but I tend to have personal space issues so I'll just say that when I first posted this morning I was tense and angry, but your responses have made it all better. Thank you.

DRFseven

Thanks for the apology. Actually, I did notice Cleftone's comments and disagreed with several points he made, but, ironically, that disagreement was why I never commented on his post. He seems to think that people who choose to be childless are selfish and that having children is the "best" thing anyone can ever do. I don't agree with him, but have no way to refute it; that is simply my personal opinion. The only thing I could do (short of an "Is not; is, too!" shouting match) was to post my own opinions in a separate post, which I did several times in this thread, stating that I think it's up to the people involved whether they have children or not, that I respect their decisions, that people don't require children to be able to knowledgeably care for them, and that I value people for who they are, not for whether or not they have children. I kept trying to delineate the separate issues (societal pressure to have children, who knows what it's like to have children, and whether the childless can be knowledgeable about children; all based on echidna's original post) and keep the responses in line with that instead of all jumbled together.

I still don't think Cleftone was saying he wanted the deliberately childless to have children. More likely, he thinks that selfish (in his opinion) people shouldn't have children. This was the basis of the exchanges with alek, not whether or not everyone who posted treated the childless with respect. Along the same lines, there were several posts regarding how boring and exclusionary (and I think even selfish) parents can be and these posts went as unprotested by the nonparents as Cleftone's did by the parents.

DRFseven

If you read my response to LadyShea, you'll see that I was referring to the problem of people with children telling the childless that they SHOULD have children. Since I couldn't find a single example of that in a post, I was asking if personal assertions such as parent/child love being the "highest expression of love", or of parenthood being the "best " or "most rewarding" thing in life were being interpreted as an implicit message that those without them SHOULD have children.

I would personally never criticize people for not having children, or think such a thing. I think the world is enormously enriched by those who remain childless because benefits come in all forms. In particular, I think it sometimes takes a particular form of selfLESSness to make the considered and rational decision not to have children because the impetus to have them and the gratification derived can be enormous. By the same token, I would never tell someone that discussion of the most precious thing in his/her life was boring drivel. Everyone on both sides of the issue has feelings, which is what we're talking about here.