Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Duvenoy · 07-01-2002, 05:54 AM

Doug:
"No such said fossil, or anything like you suggest, is on the horizon, I don't think (though who knows?). But that was not my point - my point was that there ARE at least theoretically and logically possible (i.e., they are not precluded simply by logic) things which COULD indicate "Design", and which could be "scientifically verifiable"."
---------------------------------------

I can easily admit to the possibility, but, as stated, nothing is on the horizon.

My point is that the Theory of Evolution can be easily debunked. All you have to do is find that fossil. Thus far, in spite of some pretty outrageous claims by some Creationists, the fossil remains on the AWOL list.

doov

[ July 01, 2002: Message edited by: Duvenoy ]</p>

Late_Cretaceous · 07-01-2002, 05:57 AM

I never understood the whole argument that claims that the universe is so complicated that it MUST be designed.

Hell, if anything the universe is TOO complex to have been designed.

Hans · 07-01-2002, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Douglas J. Bender:
So, if a human fossil, wearing gold rings, was discovered in a pre-Cambrian strata, and both the fossil and the rings were conclusively dated to pre-Cambrian times, this would not falsify Darwinian evolution, and "prove" at least some sort of "Design" (that, since at least humans had not "evolved", they had to have been "designed")?

No. It would only prove that human evolutionary history was not properly understood. It would not disprove evolution. And, most importantly, disproving a counter theory does nothing to establish an otherwise unsupported one.

Autonemesis · 07-01-2002, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Douglas J. Bender:
But that was not my point - my point was that there ARE at least theoretically and logically possible (i.e., they are not precluded simply by logic) things which COULD indicate "Design", and which could be "scientifically verifiable".

No. If natural selection is false, it says nothing about intelligent design. You still have to prove intelligent design, which seems to require producing a designer.

And a proof of intelligent design offers no support for the gospel, i.e. that the designer is desirous or worthy of worship.

So go ahead and look for your bejeweled hominid. If you find it, you will send a bunch of biologists back to the drawing board, not to church.

lpetrich · 07-01-2002, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Thor Q. Mada: As an engineer, I can only say that if we are the fruit of "intelligent design", then I am really worried.
Douglas J. Bender :
Well, that makes sense, given the knowledge of judgment, however repressed, which God has given to everyone.

TQM was simply commenting that our bodies' "designer(s)" had made some gross blunders and illogical decisions. What's the point of human embryos having gill pouches and blood vessels to match? Or a tail? Or eyes initially on the sides of the head? Or a sort-of eggshell (the amniotic sac)?

What sort of "designer(s)" would have made it easy to choke on food? Or made it necessary to give birth through the pelvic opening rather than at the front of the pelvis? In effect, why downward instead of forward birth? (I wonder what the female readers think of this example, since they are most closely affected by it)

Quote:

TQM:
Which all knowing designer would design a body of which some parts have a 200 years design life and others max 120. Even Henry Ford knew better.
DJB:
Henry Ford designed human bodies? Wow. But hadn't you heard that originally human bodies were designed to last forever, and that SIN corrupted humanity, resulting in death and the eventual decline in life-span?

How would "sin" make us destructible? Before that munching on that fruit, were we capable of surviving without any protection or assistance:
Sub-freezing-water temperatures
Molten-lava temperatures
Lack of air to breathe (underwater, outer space, etc.)
Rocks falling on us

Even if our genetic material could be edited so that we did not age and we were essentially cancer-proof and so forth, we would still be vulnerable to such calamities.

Quote:

TQM:
And how about the heart of a human male??
Clearly underdesigned.
DJB:
"Clearly".

Looks like a joke to me -- which DJB took seriously.

Quote:

DJB:
So, if a human fossil, wearing gold rings, was discovered in a pre-Cambrian strata, and both the fossil and the rings were conclusively dated to pre-Cambrian times, this would not falsify Darwinian evolution, and "prove" at least some sort of "Design" (that, since at least humans had not "evolved", they had to have been "designed")?

It might instead prove that we would eventually acquire the ability to travel backwards in time. Especially if some sort of putative time-travel machine was found nearby. Complete with survival gear, such as oxygen tanks for being able to breathe in the early atmosphere (oops! this guy ran out of air!).

Quote:

Richard Dawkins: ... The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
DJB:
Sure thing. And it was just a "happy coincidence" that, the morning after I had seriously considered devoting my life to bringing the Gospel to Romanian orphans, I saw a burned out piece of a newspaper at the very bottom of the steps to my 2nd floor apartment, and which had ONLY the following words remaining on it (from some headline): "GO FOR IT". Yep, nothing but a random occurrence - obviously no "intent" behind it.

Pure coincidence. If one keeps one's eyes open, one will see a lot of such things.

And if I was a god and I wanted some people to be aware of some teaching, I'd imprint it on their minds. I have had a long experience of being a creator of computer programs, and I don't construct such roundabout designs unless I was forced to by my lack of either omnipotence or omniscience.

Quetzal · 07-01-2002, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Douglas:

So, if a human fossil, wearing gold rings, was discovered in a pre-Cambrian strata, and both the fossil and the rings were conclusively dated to pre-Cambrian times, this would not falsify Darwinian evolution, and "prove" at least some sort of "Design" (that, since at least humans had not "evolved", they had to have been "designed")?

One fossil? Probably not. Multiple fossils of this type in the same strata certainly would. Wouldn't even take that much. Showing a rodent in Vendian layers in both Australia and Greenland would do nicely, for instance.

BTW: You would date the fossils (and gold rings!!) how, exactly? Considering you deny the capability of radiometric dating in toto, why would you consider this "evidence" compelling against evolution?

Clutch · 07-01-2002, 08:17 AM

Quote:

my point was that there ARE at least theoretically and logically possible (i.e., they are not precluded simply by logic) things which COULD indicate "Design", and which could be "scientifically verifiable".

I'm glad one or two people picked up on the risible fallacy here. Really, this dismal sophomorism defines creationism and ID-ology: evidence against common ancestry amounts to evidence for "design".

Of course! Just like evidence against phlogiston theory showed that combustion is caused by demons...

As I've argued here and elsewhere: ID-ology is devoid of empirical content.

Stephen T-B · 07-01-2002, 08:26 AM

Douglas told us: "Sure thing. And it was just a 'happy coincidence' that, the morning after I had seriously considered devoting my life to bringing the Gospel to Romanian orphans, I saw a burned out piece of a newspaper at the very bottom of the steps to my 2nd floor apartment, and which had ONLY the following words remaining on it (from some headline): 'GO FOR IT"' Yep, nothing but a random occurrence - obviously no 'intent' behind it."

I too once required direction, Douglas. I asked for it, I hoped for it, and I didn't get it.
Seems a bit random to me. Seems a bit random to me why some people get cured of their incurable diseases after they've been prayed for, and some don't; a bit random why some good Christians get killed in wars and others are miraculously saved. God doesn't eliminate random events; he just fits in with them.

Mageth · 07-01-2002, 09:05 AM

Sure thing. And it was just a "happy coincidence" that, the morning after I had seriously considered devoting my life to bringing the Gospel to Romanian orphans, I saw a burned out piece of a newspaper at the very bottom of the steps to my 2nd floor apartment, and which had ONLY the following words remaining on it (from some headline): "GO FOR IT". Yep, nothing but a random occurrence - obviously no "intent" behind it.

Yup, noting but a random occurrence. On the other hand, you can't rule out that some tapdancin' demon left it there...

Do you consult fortune cookies as well as random pieces of newspaper?

Reminds me of a little joke I heard about a man who had a problem and decided to seek god's advice by flipping the bible open randomly and pointing to a verse with his eyes closed. On his first attempt, he opened his eyes and read "Judas went out and hanged himself." He didn't like this much, so he tried again and got "Go thou and do likewise." He decided to give it one more try and ended up with "What you do, do quickly."

BTW, Romanian orphans needed food, medicine, shelter, and families to take them in. Hopefully you delayed giving the "godspell" to them until you'd dealt with their more pressing needs.

07-01-2002, 10:13 AM

Douglas,

Since you are a firm advocate of meaningful coincidence, are you consistent and follow astrology and the various incarnations of numerology? Or is it that coincidence that YOU find meaningful count for more?

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07-01-2002, 05:54 AM	#31
Duvenoy Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Just another hick from the sticks. Posts: 1,108	Doug: "No such said fossil, or anything like you suggest, is on the horizon, I don't think (though who knows?). But that was not my point - my point was that there ARE at least theoretically and logically possible (i.e., they are not precluded simply by logic) things which COULD indicate "Design", and which could be "scientifically verifiable"." --------------------------------------- I can easily admit to the possibility, but, as stated, nothing is on the horizon. My point is that the Theory of Evolution can be easily debunked. All you have to do is find that fossil. Thus far, in spite of some pretty outrageous claims by some Creationists, the fossil remains on the AWOL list. doov [ July 01, 2002: Message edited by: Duvenoy ]</p>

07-01-2002, 05:57 AM	#32
Late_Cretaceous Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Alberta Posts: 1,049	I never understood the whole argument that claims that the universe is so complicated that it MUST be designed. Hell, if anything the universe is TOO complex to have been designed.

07-01-2002, 08:26 AM	#38
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	Douglas told us: "Sure thing. And it was just a 'happy coincidence' that, the morning after I had seriously considered devoting my life to bringing the Gospel to Romanian orphans, I saw a burned out piece of a newspaper at the very bottom of the steps to my 2nd floor apartment, and which had ONLY the following words remaining on it (from some headline): 'GO FOR IT"' Yep, nothing but a random occurrence - obviously no 'intent' behind it." I too once required direction, Douglas. I asked for it, I hoped for it, and I didn't get it. Seems a bit random to me. Seems a bit random to me why some people get cured of their incurable diseases after they've been prayed for, and some don't; a bit random why some good Christians get killed in wars and others are miraculously saved. God doesn't eliminate random events; he just fits in with them.

07-01-2002, 09:05 AM	#39
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Sure thing. And it was just a "happy coincidence" that, the morning after I had seriously considered devoting my life to bringing the Gospel to Romanian orphans, I saw a burned out piece of a newspaper at the very bottom of the steps to my 2nd floor apartment, and which had ONLY the following words remaining on it (from some headline): "GO FOR IT". Yep, nothing but a random occurrence - obviously no "intent" behind it. Yup, noting but a random occurrence. On the other hand, you can't rule out that some tapdancin' demon left it there... Do you consult fortune cookies as well as random pieces of newspaper? Reminds me of a little joke I heard about a man who had a problem and decided to seek god's advice by flipping the bible open randomly and pointing to a verse with his eyes closed. On his first attempt, he opened his eyes and read "Judas went out and hanged himself." He didn't like this much, so he tried again and got "Go thou and do likewise." He decided to give it one more try and ended up with "What you do, do quickly." BTW, Romanian orphans needed food, medicine, shelter, and families to take them in. Hopefully you delayed giving the "godspell" to them until you'd dealt with their more pressing needs.

07-01-2002, 10:13 AM	#40
Synaesthesia Guest Posts: n/a	Douglas, Since you are a firm advocate of meaningful coincidence, are you consistent and follow astrology and the various incarnations of numerology? Or is it that coincidence that YOU find meaningful count for more?

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