Freethought & Rationalism Archive

David Mathews · 07-06-2002, 09:15 AM

Hello Theli,

Quote:

Jesus was not made of atoms?

Haven't we already gone through this before.
A living human is not considered by atheists to be a cluster of specific atoms. It is not the individual particles that determines the individual person.

David: Jesus was made of atoms but Jesus was not only atoms. You are made of atoms but you are not only atoms.

I suppose that there is more to life than the physical substance which compose the cells, their relationship to each other in cooperative organs and the intricate computer which is the brain.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-06-2002, 09:25 AM

Hello John Barnes, Jr.,

Thanks for mentioning your name.

Quote:

I have an announcement to make people! Our friend David is a fideist- perhaps the very first one I have met. He has no factual evidence for God's existence. He has no logical proof which he stakes his belief on. He purely and simply believes.

David: I do believe. Factual evidence and logical proof are frivolous in comparison to the power of a living faith.

About factual evidence: We don't have all of the factual evidence, we don't even have a majority of the factual evidence: in reality we are in almost absolute lack of factual evidence.

About logical proof: Logic is only as good as the mind which attempts to think logically. The most logical thinkers throughout history have made substantial errors about a great many things. Therefore, logic is no guarantee of correctness or truth.

Quote:

Like a solipsist, I don't think there is any argument which will move him- he will just nod and smile, and go right on with his unsupported and empty faith.

David: My faith is supported by the testimony of my soul as it responds to this world and it contemplates the next. My faith is substantial because it has comsumed and absorbed all of the naturalism which your viewpoint offers, accepting everything and denying nothing.

Quote:

David: God is not real in the sense that physical things are real. God is real in a sense that physical things are not real. Though these two sentences seem to contradict in reality they do not.

Jobar: The Invisible Pink Unicorn is not real in the sense that physical things are real. The Invisible Pink Unicorn is real in a sense that physical things are not real. Though these two sentences seem to contradict in reality they do not.

David: As a matter of fact, John, the second argument is legitimate. There is a sense in which the Invisible Pink Unicorn is real. The Invisible Pink Unicorn is real as a theoretical concept in the mind of those who contemplate such things. The Invisible Pink Unicorn is not real in the sense that you and I are real, nor is it real in the sense that God is real, but it is the real in a conceptual sense.

Mickey Mouse is real: Do you agree or disagree?

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-06-2002, 09:34 AM

Hello AtlanticCitySlave,

What's your name, please?

Quote:

If no one has noticed, David's entire belief structure is based on the belief in God, but he has already admitted that he does not "know" God exists and that he can't prove God exists, but rather it is based on "faith". Faith, I presume, means something along the lines of belief without reason to David, since if it didn't it would be odd to have faith rather than just good reason(s) for something. The problem of course is that one really can't associate with David since he has given up being reasonable for faith, unless he can defend that it's rational to have faith.

David: Faith is at least as rational as atheism.

What sort of reasoning and rationality are associated with atheism? If you have some objective argument on behalf of atheism, let's hear it.

Quote:

Ironically, David's whole belief structure centers around faith, and yet he demands of everyone in here to talk about "objective evidence", nothing subjective, or basically nothing that makes him look inconsistent over and over again, yet these same standards do not apply to himself at all.

David: You atheists are the ones who make the boast of objective evidence, rationality, reasoning, logic and science. I am only asking you to do what you already claim to do.

Quote:

He has asserted things that he simply does not know and cannot prove, like his comments concerning the soul, it's connection to the mind, etc. He somehow knows this, but then a little later on can't answer a question because he acknowledges we know so little about the brain (WTF?).

David: Perhaps you are not aware of the mysteries of the brain such as revealed by medicine, neuroscience and psychology.

Quote:

David seems completely unaware of science, naturalistic foundations, what it means to "know" something in philosophical terminology, linguistics, etc. And, if he's not, he seems completely unwilling to see his own flaws. Earlier someone said he was arguing from ignorance and, at least from his response, it doesn't seem that he even knows what an argument from ignorance is.

David: Atheism is also an argument from ignorance: I am not aware of God, therefore God cannot exist. or ... I cannot perceive God, therefore God does not exist. or ... I cannot comprehend God, therefore God does not exist.

All of these are arguments from ignorance.

Quote:

Concerning the positive attributes of atheism, he refuses to accept there are any, and seems to mock anyone who points out the positives. Even if there were no positive attributes at all it wouldn't matter, which he doesn't seem to realize, since atheism does not live or die on the checks in the positive column of how we get along in life, but rather by the reasonableness of the belief (or lack of one).

David: It sounds very much like you are contradicting yourself about atheism's positive attributes: Atheism has positive attributes but it doesn't need positive attributes.

These contradictions are a common feature of all belief systems, including your own.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-06-2002, 09:39 AM

Hello Madmax,

Quote:

David: I don't know how you got these positives from atheism. Are these principles contained in the holy scriptures of the atheism?

Madmax: There are no holy scriptures of atheism. These are positive assessments that can be derived from atheism depending on a person's assessment of the implications of atheism. Thats what you said you were looking for and that is what I provided.

David: If there are no holy scriptures of atheism, and atheism is strictly a denial of faith in God, where then did you get these positive attributes of atheism?

Quote:

"Divine athority" is irrelevant. You asked about the positives that could be derived from atheism. Since it provides a foundation for my Humanism, love, empathy, and caring are some of those positives, among the other things I mentioned.

David: If your atheism and humanism lead to to love, empathy and caring for others, that is a good thing. Hopefully you will teach those values to your fellow atheists ...

Quote:

David: I suppose that atheists are allowed to hate people for whatever reason. Does atheism forbid hate?

Madmax: Allowed by whom? Forbidden by whom? Just as some people derive hate and biogotry from Christianity, they could do so from atheism. These things are a a subjective judgement call no matter which view you have, atheism, Christianity, Hinduism or whatever.

David: You answered this question wisely and correctly.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

madmax2976 · 07-06-2002, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
Hello Helen,

David: I wonder what that meaning and purpose is, considering that as soon as life has departed the memory of the individual begins to fade and soon enough all that person accomplished, all of his/her hopes and dreams, all his/her beliefs and opinions and everything that made that an individual a person are forgotten.

What sort of meaning and purpose do atheists find in their own lives?

I'll butt in..

Its noticeable that David equates meaning/purpose here with "ultimate meaning". It appears from his statement that unless something has ultimate/eternal purpose, it can have no meaning or purpose at all. Of course David doesn't support this, he just assumes it.

Atheists find a wide variety of purpose/meaning in their lives. Many of them don't find "ultimate" meaning in their lives as they have no reason to believe there is ultimate meaning to their lives.

They have shed the typical human arrogance that they are the little darlings of the universe.

But it is true, that this is a comfort blanket that many people, particularly theists, are unwilling to let go of or realize it for what it appears to be - an egotistical fanatasy.

David Mathews · 07-06-2002, 09:53 AM

Hello Everyone,

The below message was written by myself on March 24th and posted on a Christian discussion group. I am posting it here for your enlightenment:

Quote:

Your faith is Small if ...

If you need to prove that God exists, your faith is small.

If you need an infallible Bible, correct in every literal detail,
your faith is small.

If you need perfect knowledge and absolute truth, your faith is small.

If the slightest hint of error demolishes your faith, your faith is
small.

If any sort of contact with imperfect people and false teachers
corrupts your faith, your faith is small.

If you are afraid of agnostics and atheists, your faith is small.

If you cannot tolerate and love Hindus, Buddhhists, Taoists, and
Muslims, your faith is small.

If you cannot confess your own doubts, weaknesses and sins, your
faith is small.

If you have any questions or comments, you are invited to speak.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

madmax2976 · 07-06-2002, 09:58 AM

Hello David,

Quote:

David: If there are no holy scriptures of atheism, and atheism is strictly a denial of faith in God, where then did you get these positive attributes of atheism?

Already asked and answered. From our subjective assessment of the implications of atheism, particuarly as it serves as the foundation of humanism and other such ideals. Buddhists for instance, derive similiar principles but do it differently.

Quote:

David: If your atheism and humanism lead to to love, empathy and caring for others, that is a good thing. Hopefully you will teach those values to your fellow atheists ...

Its been my experience that most of my fellow atheists already have these values as well.

Quote:

Madmax: Allowed by whom? Forbidden by whom? Just as some people derive hate and biogotry from Christianity, they could do so from atheism. These things are a a subjective judgement call no matter which view you have, atheism, Christianity, Hinduism or whatever.

David: You answered this question wisely and correctly.

Thank you master (Sorry, couldn't resist

)

HelenM · 07-06-2002, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
I wonder what that meaning and purpose is, considering that as soon as life has departed the memory of the individual begins to fade and soon enough all that person accomplished, all of his/her hopes and dreams, all his/her beliefs and opinions and everything that made that an individual a person are forgotten.

What sort of meaning and purpose do atheists find in their own lives?

You'd have to ask them what meaning and purpose they find. Evidently they do find plenty, though, based on my experience.

And people live on in their influence on others and the next generation, regardless of considerations of whether the essence of who they are, their consciousness survives physical death of their mortal bodies or not. We all know much about those who we never met because they died long before we were born, whose lives have impacted ours by the legacies they left.

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
 Atheists cannot enjoy love because there is always a lingering doubt about the nature of their love: Perhaps love is a biological response rather than an ethical decision made by a free will.

I suspect that for atheists all of love is purely physical as it cannot possibly possess a spiritual component.

See, that's your presupposition, but in my experience they are not all consumed by angst because they don't understand the nature of love. They don't care. If it works, do it.

As for love having no spiritual component for atheists, it depends what you mean by spiritual but I think it's probably not true in the way that you mean it. Some atheists are very romantic

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
David: Of course I care about you, Helen. You can be certain of that.

Well...thanks

I don't want this to get too personal or into ad hominems but, if that's how you feel then obviously it's not true you don't care about any respondents here and I'm glad to see that!

love
Helen

Pomp · 07-06-2002, 11:21 AM

David Mathews,

Not in the least. Atheists cannot enjoy love because there is always a lingering doubt about the nature of their love: Perhaps love is a biological response rather than an ethical decision made by a free will.

Er...how does that follow? I have no "lingering doubt" about the nature of the emotion we call love. As far as I am concerned, it is a biological and sociological phenomenon, and a damned enjoyable one at that. I'd like to see the reasoning that supports your conjecture that we cannot "enjoy love" if it is not an ethical decision.

I suspect that for atheists all of love is purely physical as it cannot possibly possess a spiritual component.

That depends on what you mean by "spiritual." I would agree that atheistic love (and theistic love, for that matter, no matter what you want to tell yourself) has no spiritual component if, by spiritual you mean something like "transcendant, not arising from the material world." I usually use the word spiritual to mean something more like "having to do with one's mind, identity, or emotions," in which case there most certainly is a spiritual element to atheistic love.

Perhaps I am mistaken. If so, atheists should define love as they understand it and practice it.

Love: an emotion that involves feelings of affection for, and the desire to please or care for, another individual.

I'm not sure what you mean by "practice." If you're asking how an atheist expresses love, then the answer is the same way that everyone else does.

Bible Humper · 07-06-2002, 11:36 AM

Hello David, it seems that you overlooked my last post. A drop in a maelstrom of posts, no wonder you missed it!

Anyway, it is the fifth post down on the fifteenth page.

Thanks.

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07-06-2002, 11:21 AM	#429
Pomp Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Indianapolis area Posts: 3,468	David Mathews, Not in the least. Atheists cannot enjoy love because there is always a lingering doubt about the nature of their love: Perhaps love is a biological response rather than an ethical decision made by a free will. Er...how does that follow? I have no "lingering doubt" about the nature of the emotion we call love. As far as I am concerned, it is a biological and sociological phenomenon, and a damned enjoyable one at that. I'd like to see the reasoning that supports your conjecture that we cannot "enjoy love" if it is not an ethical decision. I suspect that for atheists all of love is purely physical as it cannot possibly possess a spiritual component. That depends on what you mean by "spiritual." I would agree that atheistic love (and theistic love, for that matter, no matter what you want to tell yourself) has no spiritual component if, by spiritual you mean something like "transcendant, not arising from the material world." I usually use the word spiritual to mean something more like "having to do with one's mind, identity, or emotions," in which case there most certainly is a spiritual element to atheistic love. Perhaps I am mistaken. If so, atheists should define love as they understand it and practice it. Love: an emotion that involves feelings of affection for, and the desire to please or care for, another individual. I'm not sure what you mean by "practice." If you're asking how an atheist expresses love, then the answer is the same way that everyone else does.

07-06-2002, 11:36 AM	#430
Bible Humper Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,125	Hello David, it seems that you overlooked my last post. A drop in a maelstrom of posts, no wonder you missed it! Anyway, it is the fifth post down on the fifteenth page. Thanks.

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