Jeremy Pallant

Numbers 31 is a pretty good example, with all the Midianites being killed except for the virgins. The culmination of the siege of Jericho ends in the complete massacre of all the inhabitants, except for one hooker and her family, and in 1 Samuel 15, God (via Samuel) commands the genocide of the Amalekites.

The Other Michael

St. Robert,

Watch out, you've just imposed limits on your omni-everything deity.

good luck,
Michael

Autonemesis

Won't work. I have no values that can be described that way. There is no christ or god in any of my value "calculations". Logically, your christian value system should place a lower value on human life than would a rational, empathic atheist. But then christians are famous for paying no attention to the logical implications of their beliefs, so it would not surprise me if you feel compelled to argue with this statement.
<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Tell me, why is killing bad? Is it because god says it is bad, and that's all that we need to know? Or is there something else you can say about murder that has nothing to do with god, but still argues strongly against a permissive attitude towards killing? If there is a convincing reason why murder is not sanctionable, why propose god's law or word in addition to that? What does it add that we haven't already contributed ourselves? That god is on the same page with us? Good for god, let's hope he can keep up. Why is a very good reason (or reasons) alone not good enough for you?

You think? So you are arguing against the existence of free will? Or is god responsible for murderers? I mean, if I am killed by a mugger tomorrow, my life must have ended according to god's will, right? So how is the murderer responsible for my death, if he is merely the agent of god's will?

Well that's your opinion, but there no sign of this creator nor of his wishes, pro or con, with respect to, err.. respect and admiration. There is no reason to posit a creator, much less that this creator gives a damn whether homo sapiens pays him any attention at all.

Oh, and by the way, the Milky Way is on the large side of the size spectrum. There are many galaxies that dwarf the Milky Way, but the Milky Way dwarfs many, many more than that.

[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: Kind Bud ]</p>

Autonemesis

How is that possible, if god is omni-present? Or is he? Can you explain how any soul anywhere - heaven or hell or in between - could be in a state with the total absense of god, unless god is not everywhere? Now that I think about it, what does "total absense of god" mean? Is it as I originally assumed, that god's power or self or presense is absent from whatever place or state the damned find themselves in after judgement? I don't see how I can make sense of your idea of damnation until I understand what you mean by "total absense of god". Please explain.

Jack the Bodiless

RJS:
You missed my point. If doctors were omnipotent, I would NOT get a flu shot: neither would anyone else (unless they enjoy pain). If a doctor can banish flu with a simple wave of the hand, why should he stick needles in people?

You don't seem to realize the implications of God's alleged omnipotence. It means that all suffering in the world is unnecessary suffering. There cannot be any necessary suffering at all!

If there is suffering in a world controlled by an omnipotent God, there can only be ONE reason: God is a sadist who likes watching people suffer.

And on the subject of genocide: in the OT, soldiers wiped out whole tribes because MOSES told them to, not God directly. The Crusaders went on the rampage because various POPES told them to, not God directly.

However, my point remains: in the OT, genocide against unbelievers is endorsed and commanded by God. Therefore the Crusaders were following Biblical precedent. There was nothing "un-Christian" about the Crusades.

St Robert:
And where did you get that from? Not from the Bible! Where does it say that God can't murder someone? And where in the Bible is Satan negligent? Where in the Bible does Satan kill anybody? In the Bible, it is GOD who inflicts suffering and death, not Satan.

You've invented your own religion?
Sure he could. He could just say "sins, begone". Furthermore, as a "sin" is supposedly just a transgression against God, he could just say "shucks, I forgive you, forget about it".

I have the ability to cancel the debt of any transgressions against me. Furthermore, I can do it without killing anybody. So I'm more powerful than God, right?

free12thinker

Would you rather use another word. Like, "mysterious ways".
Here's the headline:
Heatwave kills 178 due to God's mysterious ways (read: murder).

Of course, atheists know better. God didn't, does not, never will, murder anyone. And this heat wave was an act of nature, a natural occurence. But we love hearing the differences in opinions and interpretation from Christian to Christian, in trying explain just how god works, what he's responsible for; the whole nine yards.

Just one more question though. Why couldn't God let everyone else take the heat for their sins? He does so today, right. I mean, you do believe there's a hell? You do believe that sinful people (like homosexuals, women with a voice and atheists) go to hell. We'll be taking the heat for our sins right, I mean literally 'taking the heat'.

St. Robert

You have been deceived. Satan chose to be Satan. God doesn't demand that even the angels in heaven follow him. Following God is voluntary.

As much as you might want to believe it, God is not your enemy. Satan is your enemy and he will do anything to keep you from the love of God.

free12thinker

God is not our enemy indeed. He is a kindhearted soul with a heart of gold and a gentle touch that rings with resilience and strength that we are so desperate for. He offers insight into life, as only he (being the creator knows how).

Okay, there's a punchline in there somewhere.

Or does it reem with enough sarcasm, that you can see right through it?

God is an insult to our intelligence. He takes away reality and replaces it with Robin Hood-esque potential and possibility, which in turn, steers people away from clear ambition and determination, because, hey, so long as I follow, I don't have to lead. This is an unfortunate train of thought that people have. God is great, god is good, let us thank him for our food. When people recite this, they are telling themselves that god is the reason they are eating, yet, when bill's aren't paid, or the worse comes to fruition, like the heat wave, it was either:
(a) the devils doing OR
(b) god doing is for a reason

People accept this as so, because frankly, it's easier than dealing with reality. It's easier to be with the crowd. It's easier to swallow a world of puffy clouds and harps, than to face death in the eye. People are weak minded, and you my friend, are part of the reason.

I would like to see a world without any mention of god, and watch as an entire civilization grows up (with no influence) never having seen or felt or heard from a god. It would absolutely happen if there was no propoganda. People see or hear what they want to see or hear. There is no god, and he didn't cause this heatwave, like there is no devil.

Unless your a hockey fan from New Jersey of course.

brighid

You know - why is it that so often theists fail to address my questions and posts?? Two pages later and not a single taker!

B

brighid

Sweetie – that Thou Shalt Not Kill commandment is really Thou Shalt not Murder an Israelite! It is perfectly acceptable to kill/murder/rape/pillage/decimate any population of people that aren’t Israelite/Hebrew as evidenced in the OT!

It is sick to me that your God needs man to kill His creations, which he has full power to create, or destroy by the very definition of His Almighty Being. Why does he need an Israelite army to take their sword to its neighbor when he could easily do it Himself? Why, because the men of the OT were delusional, believing a God told them to MURDER other people for the MOST ridiculous reasons – like census taking or hundreds of years ago their forefathers were not courteous to the Israelite Tribes, or because the women weren’t virgins!

And this crap about killing because these OTHER people disobeyed the Hebrew God – well the rules of the OT ONLY apply to the Hebrews! These people didn’t KNOW God’s rules because they weren’t CHOSEN by Him. He CHOSE not to reveal Himself to anyone amongst THEIR nations and he CHOSE to be EXCLUSIVE to the Hebrew Nation. So why on Earth should those people be held accountable to a God that deliberately withheld Himself from them? If your neighboring nations prophet came over to you today and said “Obey MY God, the One and Only True God, or else you will die by His (really OUR) sword” would you just suddenly prostrate yourself for this man and his army? I bet if those Muslims came over here and told you that you would all be lining up to start your morning prayers to Mecca and Allah!! Well – for those people who had the misfortune of being destined to be anything other than an Israelite – they couldn’t convert. They couldn’t marry into the Nation – it was forbidden at that time, so your God (who is Jesus) created these people full well knowing they could NEVER become a Jew just so he could have an excuse to kill them in brutal and utterly contemptable ways? Do you realize that men are convicted of crimes against Humanity for doing the things your God allegedly ordered the Hebrews to do the their neighbors??? Oh – but its evil and cruel if a Muslim does it, but its perfectly acceptable if the Christian/Hebrew God does it?

And you call this deity BENEVOLENT – LOVING – JUST- MERCIFUL and KIND? And you want US to bow down and humble ourselves before this tyrant? How is it possible that this line of thought (for I won’t call it reasoning) is capable of forming in your mental sky as justifiable and TRUE? Do you people EVER contemplate the implications and reality of this line of thinking? Do you ever attempt to apply it in reverse and walk in another’s shoes? How is it that you are capable of worshipping this demon you call God?

Brighid