Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Pennywise the clown · 03-20-2002, 07:26 AM

A kind God would not allow this:

Now I must pray for the return of my eyesite.

Jonesy · 03-20-2002, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pennywise the clown:
<strong>A kind God would not allow this:

Now I must pray for the return of my eyesite.</strong>

what are you on about? I'm failing to follow your (or the lack of) argument

Pennywise the clown · 03-20-2002, 07:54 AM

I used to frequent a skeptics board many moons ago
Mr. Thiaoouba and you spammed that board with your crummy website and poorly written book:

<a href="http://www.thiaoouba.com" target="_blank">http://www.thiaoouba.com</a>

I stand by my original assessment of your book. Beep! Beep! Of course, perhaps someone here might want to debate you.

Queen of Swords · 03-20-2002, 07:58 AM

May the Great Lime Green Eye watch over you, Thiaoouba; you're going to need it.

Francois Tremblay · 03-20-2002, 11:45 AM

I'm still fascinated by the idea of those "bioresonant" clothes, especially by how much pseudo-science they can cram into one page.

Rational Ag · 03-20-2002, 12:04 PM

ZA:

Being the sadist that I am, I listen to Christian talk radio to and from work, both for the humor value and to listen to the misconceptions and misinformation about science, atheists, and everything secular.

Having said that, one of the more annoying things I listen to would be the assumption that the universe was "created", and then the argument that something or someone must have created it. What is particularly aggravating about this argument is that the theists will then conclude that God, the creator, is eternally existent, and was not created. Theists are happy to assume that God is eternally existent, but cannot imagine that all matter and energy in the universe could eternally existent and constant.

The universe seems to me to be a finite (although large) amount of energy and matter, constantly changing shape and form eternally. The conversion of energy into matter, and vice-versa, over billions of years since the formation of our solar system, are based on natural laws (which we may or may not understand at this point).

I liken the statement that "the universe was created, the question is how or by whom?" to the question "what is the meaning of life?” The question implies there is a meaning to life, but the questionee just hasn't found it yet.

In short, I too think that the evidence we have today points towards an eternally existent universe.

-Rational Ag

[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: Rational Ag ]</p>

Pennywise the clown · 03-20-2002, 12:37 PM

[I liken the statement that "the universe was created, the question is how or by whom?" to the question "what is the meaning of life?� The question implies there is a meaning to life, but the questionee just hasn't found it yet.]

As Kant noted many years ago, no metaphysical axiom can be proven to be necessary. "Meaning", by its very nature, implies a metaphysical and teleological structure that is grounded in assumptions beyond matter. That is, you will be able to very easily shoot down the meaning of life. It wouldn't be the meaning of life if it were logically unassailable.

If you are dealing with someone who believes that the material world exists, you can win every argument by having the position that all that exists are atoms and molecules flying around randomly and that there is no moral or philosophical principle that can be proven to be true, or even to have any meaning. Life is completely pointless on a philosophical level.

If you have someone who knows how to argue that the material world may not exist, then there are not only no moral or philosophical principles that can be proven to exist, but indeed, there are no scientific principles that can be proven to exist either. You have just made a right turn into solipsism, which of course can't be proven either, leaving you with no provable statements at all.

Which is why I think the God concept is beyond science and philiosophy! After awhile it becomes one big word game. All parties--theistic and otherwise--spin round and round but at the end of the day when my makeup comes off, neither side has an answer with 100% certainty.

Which leaves me with meditation.

[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: Pennywise the clown ]</p>

Francois Tremblay · 03-20-2002, 01:24 PM

Congradulations Pennywise the clown. A fine demonstration of why the academia in philosophy is screwed up, and the comfort from reality in meditation was a nice finishing touch (^_^)

(what's even sadder is that it's probably not even a parody...)

tronvillain · 03-20-2002, 02:52 PM

Franc28:

Quote:

There has to be a "first cause" because infinite regress is impossible. It's impossible for anything to "blink into existence" because of the law of non-contradiction. Simple logic.

Shall we link to our discussion of the possibility of infinite regress? I doubt we really want to go throught the whole thing again. Of course, the universe simply existing doesn't necessarily have anything to do with an infinite regress.

Also, it is not logically impossible for something to "blink into existence", unless you claim that it did so from nothing. It does seem logically impossible for "nothing" to exist after all.

tronvillain · 03-20-2002, 03:02 PM

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=57&t=000099&p=1" target="_blank">The universe and its "cause"?</a>

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03-20-2002, 07:26 AM	#11
Pennywise the clown Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: "We all float down here!" Posts: 34	A kind God would not allow this: Now I must pray for the return of my eyesite.

03-20-2002, 07:54 AM	#13
Pennywise the clown Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: "We all float down here!" Posts: 34	I used to frequent a skeptics board many moons ago Mr. Thiaoouba and you spammed that board with your crummy website and poorly written book: <a href="http://www.thiaoouba.com" target="_blank">http://www.thiaoouba.com</a> I stand by my original assessment of your book. Beep! Beep! Of course, perhaps someone here might want to debate you.

03-20-2002, 07:58 AM	#14
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	May the Great Lime Green Eye watch over you, Thiaoouba; you're going to need it.

03-20-2002, 11:45 AM	#15
Francois Tremblay Banned Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Montreal, QC Canada Posts: 876	I'm still fascinated by the idea of those "bioresonant" clothes, especially by how much pseudo-science they can cram into one page.

03-20-2002, 12:04 PM	#16
Rational Ag Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston Posts: 136	ZA: Being the sadist that I am, I listen to Christian talk radio to and from work, both for the humor value and to listen to the misconceptions and misinformation about science, atheists, and everything secular. Having said that, one of the more annoying things I listen to would be the assumption that the universe was "created", and then the argument that something or someone must have created it. What is particularly aggravating about this argument is that the theists will then conclude that God, the creator, is eternally existent, and was not created. Theists are happy to assume that God is eternally existent, but cannot imagine that all matter and energy in the universe could eternally existent and constant. The universe seems to me to be a finite (although large) amount of energy and matter, constantly changing shape and form eternally. The conversion of energy into matter, and vice-versa, over billions of years since the formation of our solar system, are based on natural laws (which we may or may not understand at this point). I liken the statement that "the universe was created, the question is how or by whom?" to the question "what is the meaning of life?” The question implies there is a meaning to life, but the questionee just hasn't found it yet. In short, I too think that the evidence we have today points towards an eternally existent universe. -Rational Ag [ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: Rational Ag ]</p>

03-20-2002, 12:37 PM	#17
Pennywise the clown Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: "We all float down here!" Posts: 34	[I liken the statement that "the universe was created, the question is how or by whom?" to the question "what is the meaning of life?� The question implies there is a meaning to life, but the questionee just hasn't found it yet.] As Kant noted many years ago, no metaphysical axiom can be proven to be necessary. "Meaning", by its very nature, implies a metaphysical and teleological structure that is grounded in assumptions beyond matter. That is, you will be able to very easily shoot down the meaning of life. It wouldn't be the meaning of life if it were logically unassailable. If you are dealing with someone who believes that the material world exists, you can win every argument by having the position that all that exists are atoms and molecules flying around randomly and that there is no moral or philosophical principle that can be proven to be true, or even to have any meaning. Life is completely pointless on a philosophical level. If you have someone who knows how to argue that the material world may not exist, then there are not only no moral or philosophical principles that can be proven to exist, but indeed, there are no scientific principles that can be proven to exist either. You have just made a right turn into solipsism, which of course can't be proven either, leaving you with no provable statements at all. Which is why I think the God concept is beyond science and philiosophy! After awhile it becomes one big word game. All parties--theistic and otherwise--spin round and round but at the end of the day when my makeup comes off, neither side has an answer with 100% certainty. Which leaves me with meditation. [ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: Pennywise the clown ]</p>

03-20-2002, 01:24 PM	#18
Francois Tremblay Banned Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Montreal, QC Canada Posts: 876	Congradulations Pennywise the clown. A fine demonstration of why the academia in philosophy is screwed up, and the comfort from reality in meditation was a nice finishing touch (^_^) (what's even sadder is that it's probably not even a parody...)

03-20-2002, 03:02 PM	#20
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=57&t=000099&p=1" target="_blank">The universe and its "cause"?</a>

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