DRFseven

But, even this statement reflects an experientially-derived opinion. According to what you think, morals based on what people think aren't real morals.

Garbles18

Okay, I see what you were saying. You were arguing whether or not the choice was arbitrary, not whether or not it was possible.

I think your definition of morality is an objective one. You seem to be saying that subjective morality is not morality at all. Is that correct?

I think I see what you are saying. Personal preference implies doing what you want and not necessarily what you think is right. So how about what someone said very early on in the thread, "pragmatic self-interest"? Every act is ultimately self-serving because you either get the benefits now, directly or later, indirectly. All morals are based on this idea, whether subjective or objective.

idiom

I thought immoral deeds served self-interest now but moral deeds served self-interest later. Thus the difference is again self-control.

Thomas Ash

No, morals based on what people think are morals if they think that they are moral commands/tennets which carry with them a sense of obligation, but not if they think they're in some sense arbitrary and if they think that if someone else doesn't follow them (eg. goes around throwing rotten fruit at people, etc.), there's no sense in which you can say they should not.

DRFseven

OK, let's take the birth control example I gave earlier and you tell me if I'm getting this right. If I think that failure to use birth control is ok in one time or place, but wrong in another, is that moral belief false? Am I wrong in thinking it is a moral issue at all, or is it my opinion that is wrong?

Garbles18

Well, it all depends on what a person defines to be moral and immoral. A very self-involved person would probably think that making decisions that directly improve their own lives, even at the expense of others, is the best way to act. I think that you are correct, though, that most people see self-serving deeds with immediate benefits as more immoral than deeds serving self-interest later.

As an example, you could have a person that believes it is perfectly okay to steal what they want in life. They believe they are justified for whatever reason and the payoff is immediate. Most people get jobs, earn what they want in life, and think it is wrong to steal.

Primal

Well then all you are saying is that personal preference is by definition, in line with morality. Basically that the moral principle is to be followed because it is to be followed. This is merely resorting to circularity.

Thomas Ash

I just wanted to let everyone on the thread know that I'm going off to Ghana for three months tomorrow, so if I don't get back to people's replies, it's not that I'm being rude! I will try and log in from an internet café however, so I can debate atheism from Africa. Happy New Year everyone, see you in three months (or less)!

Primal

Have fun ash, happy new year's. Cheers.

capnkirk

The real source of morality is sentience. With sentience comes the burden of rationality. Rational or enlightened self-interest is only possible for a being with a sense of self.

An individual can act immorally and get away with it sometimes, but when a society does it, that society is ultimately selected against, in favor of one that acts in ways that better ensure its survival.

When you examine the interaction of the members of any community of social animals, it quickly becomes clear that when that social structure breaks down (ceases to be beneficial to enough of the population to maintain equilibrium during normal times) it will not survive the hard times.

Within sentient communities, the behavioral code that rules the community is called morals. Nature selects in favor of moral codes that promote the success of the community. The community as a whole decides on what constitutes acceptable morality, and does its best to enforce it. Success is the ultimate judge.

It's really not that difficult. It only becomes complicated when the source of morality is erroneously attributed to some supreme being, and in the process becomes absolute. It is the bane of man that he persists in doing so.