DarkBronzePlant

No problem!

Koyaanisqatsi

I, too think you are trolling...j'accuse!

No, just logically impossible. How can you doubt the "lack" of something? Beliefs are imposed, not innate, so, if you do not have any imposed beliefs, then there is no way to doubt the lack of them.

As others pointed out, do you doubt your lack of belief in leprechauns or Santa Clause?

At best, IMO, what you meant to say was, "I'm beginning to realize I have theist beliefs," though I would further suspect the "beginning" part is likewise logically impossible.

One either has "beliefs" in a god or gods or the possibility of a god or gods imposed upon them, or one does not, hence the delineation between an atheist and agnostic/theist. The atheist has no "beliefs" to either "begin" to doubt or lack, which in turn would simply mean that you never deprogrammed to begin with, if in fact you're not simply a troll as you deny.

It's ok, it could very easily be subconscious. Cult programming is effective, subtle and very difficult to self-diagnose. Though, in your case, basing my speculation upon what you've written so far, I'd say the prognosis is grim.

...further indicative of cult programming...

More evidence, but aside from that, did you ever consider (again as others touched upon) that "God" is nothing more than a fictional projection of human desires? A literary cheat? That authors made their central symbol of human ethos in man's image as an artistic reflection of themselves (in the bible's case, a warrior-deity-freedom fighter who exacts horrific vengeance upon their oppressors), since that's the entire purpose of mythology and then a few snake-oil salesmen and circus promoters subtly annexed this somewhat esoteric literary tool and used it to exploit human ignorance for their own ends (if not right from the very first word)?

It literally happens every second of every day in just about every country on Earth.

?? Again, IMO, these are the words and misunderstood constructs of cult programming, akin to arguing that atheists are just too proud to take a knee once in a while and that's why we're atheist.

Pride has nothing to do with a lack of belief in the actual existence of fictional creatures.

More evidence. By definition, there would be no way to "dismiss" a "higher power." If there actually were a "higher power," as you cryptically and indirectly here assert, how would it be possible to "dismiss" it? Especially one with the alleged interactive qualities of the creature in the bible myths?

If it did exist and we did attempt to "dismiss" it, we'd have locusts and frogs and global floods and genocide unto the fourth generation, etc., etc., etc.

"Justify not believing in?" Again, your choice of words is rather suspect as "belief" is not (or should not be) in an atheist's lexicon, IMO, nor would there be any requirement of justification. Fictional creatures don't exist. That's a definitive truism that requires neither "belief" nor justification.

As for the possibility of an "intelligent agent," again, as others have pointed out, that would mean you're expressing necessarily deist beliefs.

Well, since we are responsible for everything we do in this world, how is that either "arrogant" or "pompous?" That's personal accountability and if it were actually followed, it would make the world a better place, IMO.

In fact, the notion that we are not responsible for everything we do in this world--i.e., that God is--has arguably caused (or, at the very least, justified) the vast majority of the problems in this world and is continuing to do so in an exceedingly violent manner right this second.

I doubt it would be possible to convince a sixteen year old atheist to strap plastic explosives to her chest and blow up a strip mall in Utah because there's a good chance a lot of Mormons will be eating in the food court that day, don't you?

Un hunh...

So, apparently, are you. I would humbly reiterate that such a thought train is indicative of either trolling or deep seeded cult programming re-asserting itself and that is what you are experiencing.

You mean, is it possible to shift personal responsibility and moral culpability for your actions and the actions of others onto an imaginary, benign "father figure" that may or may not be "out there" somewhere and not use that as a crutch? I would argue, "no."

Again, I highly doubt that from what you've written and the manner in which it was written, but then I'm a cynical bastard, so, giving you the benefit of several doubts now (from other threads inclusive) I would suggest that you aren't confused at all; that you are in fact simply honestly assessing your fears and frustrations and "load bearing walls," if you will, and have come to the subconscious conclusion that you're just not yet up to the task of taking full responsibility for your actions; that you would prefer to simply shut down your higher brain functions and let a sort of cognitive autopilot take over in the manner you've seen in your "believer" friends. That's the primary appeal of the cult and cult programming, so don't worry too much, you're one among many.

But then, that's just my arrogant, pompous opinion.

[ April 12, 2002: Message edited by: Koyaanisqatsi ]</p>

Barney Gumble

</strong>



It appears a biology textbook, rather than a bible may be in order.

We are animals. Highly evolved and complex animals. So what? You're decrying this supposed "arrogance" of atheists, yet your discomfort seems to be based on your fear that you may have some links with the "lesser" species of the planet. Why exactly does this cause you so much discomfort that you're ready to accept the preposterous idea that there's an omnipotent "force" out there which actually has any plans for us? All available evidence indicates he/she/it doesn't give a lick about our existence, or for all intents and purposes, is a sadist. Neither option leads to worship, IMO.

Pseudonymph

[quote]Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:
[QB]I, too think you are trolling...j'accuse!


ralentissement with the french there buddy!
slooow down...And think.


difficult to diagnose unless its you doing the diagnosing eh? you must be a pretty sharp arrow indeed. Although indicative asshole is more likely


Of course! but what God are you talking about? Assuming a higher object exists, then what the hell would WE know about it?

I'm not sure who does YOUR programming koy, but I have to wonder if they have reached the 8th grade level.

I do not imply that "all atheists are too proud to blah blah" I imply that to some people, the idea of a higher power is unsettling, because we dont like feeling like we may not be in control of our lives.

And I realize a lot of people say that if a God exists, he dosent care about us...I'm inclined to agree with that...however, again, what do we know about something that is decidedly higher than us?

Maybe not for you...whoop de shit. I seem to know a few people for which it is. Actually quite a few people.

no koy...no. I am DIRECTLY "asserting" that there IS a higher power. At least I can no longer deny one without much much more deep thought. Certainly not the biblical god....but something else. How's that for an undercover christian?(why do you assume that? couldnt I be muslim or wiccan or hindu? Or are you just making unfounded claims again? ahh...thought so.)

I in no way said we werent responsible for what we DO. I said that people want to be responsible for everything that EXISTS. or at least be able to explain its origins. Again, we want to know EVERYTHING. Untill we do, there is always the frustration of perhaps there is something higher, something more.

Nothing "justifies" that kind of crap. I assume you meant to phrase that differently. is everyone a suicide bomber because they are courious about something more than this? certainly some people are, but again you make ridiculous geralizations...that sounds like another statement that smells fresh out of your ass.

Koy...buddy, pal. I realize that you WANT me to be a troll, so you can dismiss this as advertising for "my main man upstairs."

But dont project your "want" all over the place like vomit, as "fact"... k?



It amazes me that you write so well, yet your comprehension skills leave so much to be desired.
No I dont mean "is it possible to shift personal responsibility and moral culpability for your actions and the actions of others onto an imaginary, benign "father figure"

I meant what I asked. Read it again.

you can't be serious!

[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: SirenSpeak ]</p>

MadKally

and


You're so sweet, you remind me of Mad Kally's mom. Do you believe in Santa again too?

I don't. Is that weird or what?

[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: sock puppet ]</p>

Jobar

SirenSpeak:
"I do not imply that "all atheists are too proud to blah blah" I imply that to some people, the idea of a higher power is unsettling, because we dont like feeling like we may not be in control of our lives."

SS, I would put it to you that most people *want* to have a higher power in control of their lives. They seem to find it much more comforting than unsettling. I think that may be the source of your own present discomfort. Realizing you are not being guided by some all-powerful being is a VERY common experience for those moving away from the faith of their fathers, and it can be damn scary!

Look, I think you and Koy both need to cut each other some slack. SS, you are in the midst of what can be a long and difficult process- overcoming the religious indoctrination that you have been subjected to from the cradle. (Many of us here have gone through our own individual version.) If/when you have won your battle, it's possible that you will come to see why so many of us here so admire Koy. Watching him destroy some haughty, evangelizing Christian who believes they have all the answers is like watching a karate master defeat a blustering bully with a few swift and precise touches.

Koy, I think you should give SS a bit more of the benefit of the doubt. If she is indeed in the process of losing her religion, you may be using a shock prod attempting to drive her, when a helping hand would be appropriate. And if she's not, and is indeed a theist attempting to have us all on- well, she doesn't really stand a snowball's chance, does she?

The points and questions SS presents here seem to me ones that a newly budded skeptic would do. We have nothing to lose by dealing with her as an honest (albeit confused) acolyte of atheism.

Goliath

Sirenspeak,

Doubt is rarely, if ever, weird. However, I'm not sure how it is possible to doubt a lack of something. It is definitely possible to doubt a belief. But how can one doubt a lack of a belief?

How is skepticism and saying "I don't know" when you don't really know something translate to arrogance?

I find xianity to be arrogant in the extreme. The xian not only claims to have an answer to some of the biggest questions (eg. "Why are we here?" "What is the meaning of life?", etc), but they have the GALL to assert that everyone else that believes differently is not only wrong, but will BURN in hell eternally. That is not only arrogant, but repugnant.

I am an atheist, and I do not wish to be a god. You are therefore demonstrably wrong.

Many people have a certain level of control over my life. The chairman of the math department at NDSU can fire me in a heartbeat if he so desires. My landlord can, without reason, kick me out of my apartment, leaving me homeless. Hell, the government has control over the whole country!

Again, I am an atheist, and I have no problem with people having some degree of control over my life. You are again, demonstrably wrong.

How can I, as an atheist, "dismiss" something I don't believe to exist? Hmmmmmm?

If you wish to do so, then fine, do so.

And just who suggested this? I don't think that we, as humans, are responsible for gravity existing in this world. That is just one small example to show that you are yet again demonstrably wrong.

Agreed!

Since atheists are not, as a group, arrogant, the best answer to your question would be "There is no such thing."

Sincerely,

Goliath

[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: Goliath ]</p>

Tusitala

SirenSpeak,

People have wanted to believe in God(s) for thousands of years. Surely this will to believe must serve some sort of useful purpose for humanity....

[QUOTE] IS THERE A HAPPY MEDIUM?

Jethro Tull was sort of a British heavy metal band of the late sixties / early seventies. On the cover of their Aqualung album (IMO their best LP [vinyl] recording)was this -

"In the beginning man created god, and in the image of man created he him....." IIRC

Might I also add (in defence of agnosticism ) that if there is/was a 'GOD' then surely he's -oops- intelligent enough to respect our reasons for questioning his - Damn! I did it again - existence.

Love to all
Tusi.

Tusitala

Hear, hear! braces_for_impact.

Mad Kally

SirenSpeak,
Did you used to post under the name Erica? Just curious..