Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Coragyps · 05-04-2002, 11:27 AM

Hey, balkosphere girl! Martin's arguments seem to me a lot like one you could use if you've ever tried to reassemble a cassette tape: "I don't see how they got this thing put together without tangling the tape into a wad! Some supernatural being must have made it!" Just because Martin, or possibly even science in 2002, doesn't know exactly how these examples happened in detail doesn't "disprove evolution" any more than my inability to repair a tape means that a Music Fairy made the tape.
I'll let the biologists address the critters Martin mentioned in more depth, if "answers" are available for all of them, but they all appear to me to fit real nicely within the framework of
Variation and Natural Selection put forth by Mr Darwin about 140 years ago.
You asked, and didn't really say if the film said:

Quote:

My question is, if mutations only take place if it is absolutely necessary, how would the giraffe survived without dying out?

Mutations take place ALL THE TIME, not only when "absolutely necessary." Nearly every baby giraffe, every baby human, every new-hatched chicken, has one or a few mutations (accidents in DNA replication) in its cells. Most of these mutations are in non-coding DNA and have no noticeable effect on the organism's survival. Some mutations cause the owner to die young, or even before birth/hatching. But a few other mutations change something that gives the owner a tiny edge in growing up and having young - young that have that same changed gene - and the change will gradually spread through the population. With 500,000,000 years to do this since the first critters with backbones, it doesn't seem to much of a stretch to have beavers that can navigate. The time span is the only hard part to stretch your mind around.

Oolon Colluphid · 05-04-2002, 12:02 PM

Hi Tricia

Quote:

Originally posted by Tricia:
All right, I have some more questions on the other post, but I’ll do these first.

Thanks for coming back, and thanks for asking

Quote:

[QB]In biology class yesterday, our class watched a movie that was by Dr. Jobe Martin instead of your favorite speaker, Kent Hovind.

He's a new one on me, but he's just as wrong as Hovind.

Quote:

HE talked about several different animals that disproves evolution.

Here's a question for you, Tricia. People have been studying evolution for a hundred and fifty years. Biologists have been using it as the underlying theory of everything they do. Biologists include people such as mammalogists, some of whom specialise in giraffes and beavers; ornithologists, some of whom specialise in woodpeckers and chickens; herpetologists, some of whom specialise in geckoes; arachnidologists (?

), some of whom specialise in garden spiders; and developmental biologists, some of whom specialise in bird eggs. Hundreds of papers are published every year -- but only after they've been criticised by other scientists.

Don't you think that if there were such blatant problems with evolution, someone might have noticed? Why are the only people who see these problems creationists like Hovind and this Jobe Martin -- people who every time they open their mouths reveal that they don't really know what they're talking about?

Here are they, and my questions about each:

Quote:

The giraffe - just a brief description, the giraffe has a very strong pump for a heart because it has to go up his long neck. When he takes a drink of water, if all the blood still went to his head it would explode, so there is a sponge-like thing that collects the blood. This “sponge” gives the blood back to the head when he gets up to prevent lack of oxygen to the brain.

More or less. The spongelike thing is a system of arteries that control the movement of blood up and down the neck, so it doesn't move too suddenly either way.

Quote:

My question is, if mutations only take place if it is absolutely necessary

Whoa! Mutations are random changes in the DNA of an organism. They occur during the copying processes of cell division, either during growth and repair, or -- the relevant ones for evolution -- during the making of sperm and eggs ('gametes'). Mutations are actually pretty common. I can look up actual figures if you'd like to know (or someone else may already have that data

). Mutations do not only take place when necessary! They turn up at random. That's the principle thing about them. The utterly non-random bit is which of these naturally-occurring variations in a population get to survive and pass on their genes -- mutations and all. That's the natural selection bit: how well the organisms fit into their environment.

Quote:

how would the giraffe survived without dying out?

I'm not sure I understand what you (or Martin) are getting at. Giraffes without this mechanism would have had blood pressure headaches and died? Well maybe those ones did, but the ones which gradually developed blood pressure controls didn't, and these are the only ones we see today! These 'sponges' are made up of blood vessels. Is number and length of blood vessels not something that could incrementally increase, just as simple neck length might increase stepwise? Giraffe necks increased gradually down generations.

<a href="http://www.wildwatch.com/resources/mammals/giraffe.asp" target="_blank">http://www.wildwatch.com/resources/mammals/giraffe.asp</a>

Here's a counter example for you. The nerve that works the voicebox in mammals branches from the spinal cord in the neck. The voicebox, of course, is in the neck too. Does the nerve pass straight across to it? Nope. It passes down into the chest, loops under the aorta (a main blood vessel) by the heart, then travels right back up to the voicebox. It even does this in giraffes, which means that this 'recurrent laryngeal nerve' is around 10-15 feet longer than necessary. How is this part of a good design by a creator?

Quote:

the woodpecker - Because he bangs his head on the tree, he has a layer of cartilage protecting his head. How would that have evolved?

Erm, gradually? Is cartilage something unusual? Nope, it's where bone comes from.

Quote:

And he is the only bird with a tongue 10-11 inches long, and if all birds came from the same bird, why is that?

Is tongue length something than cannot increase gradually? Could a woodpecker with a 10 inch tongue not have offspring with ten-and-a-quarter inch tongues? If such an extra bit of tongue allowed more grubs to be eaten...

Quote:

He has a tongue that has a “glue” on it to catch bugs

Sticky saliva, probably. Sorry, can't even be bothered to look that up

but also a gland that secretes a dissolvent agent to counteract he “glue” so that he doesn’t swallow his tongue and therefore kill himself. How did he not die out before it was realized that he needed that dissolvent agent? [/QB]

Because the 'glue' became stickier gradually, and so any mutation leading to an enzyme that counteracted the 'glue' would separately add a benefit. I suspect the description of this you've been given isn't accurate anyway, much like the inhibitor allegedly present in bombardier beetles. I'll see what I can find out.

Quote:

the beaver - he knows exactly where he is going and has a little calculator in his head that tells him at what angle to swim with a log of a certain weight. How did that evolve?

Gradually, by trial and error. Those beavers that didn't get it right left fewer descendants. Those who got it right -- roughly right is good enough to start with -- left more descendants.

Gotta go, hope to be back soon with the rest.

Best wishes, Oolon

Tricia · 05-05-2002, 09:41 AM

Hovind is confused here and a long way behind the times. The Big Bang happened about 15,000,000,000 years ago. Earth formed less than 5,000,000,000 years ago.

How do you know? Obviously you weren�t there, so what dating methods are you using?

As the galaxies in the universe get further and further apart their potential energy with respect to all the other galaxies is increasing. Energy is always conserved so their kinetic energy is decreasing, that is, they are slowing down. The big question is, will they ever come to a stop. If they do, they will turn round and fall back inwards, with all the potential energy being converted back to kinetic so they all come together in a Big Crunch.

As I said before, you don�t know for sure that the Big Bang actually occurred, so how can you be sure a �Big Crunch� will?

It has been speculated (and it's no more than speculation) that after the crunch the universe will rebound in another Big Bang.

If you never saw the Big Bang, how would you know the conditions are right for another one?

He's made up the bit about dirt. Yes, it was a tiny dot, but it was a dot of incredibly bright light.

How do you know?

Hovind is seriously confused here, but he's not alone, a lot of journalists have the same problem. He has confused the creation of the universe with the creation of the solar system. There's ten billion years difference.

How do you know?

Our sun and our solar system started off as a big cloud of dust and gas.

How do you know?

It was swirling about in all directions, but all the swirls didn't exactly cancel out.

What?!?!

So, at about the time that the sun started to shine

How did it automatically �begin to shine�?

The clumps got bigger and bigger and the collisions became more violent. At sometime late in this process the Earth was hit by a planet roughly the size of Mars. The collision destroyed the other planet, badly damaged the Earth, but some of the debris remained and collected together to form our moon.

So why isn�t there a big dent in the earth?

(Although the Earth collected a lot of extra stuff in what is called the Late Bombardment about 3,800,000,000 years ago.)

I�ve never heard about the Late Bombardment before, could you explain it to me?

but Venus was hit almost head on, so it hardly rotates at all, and that bit is backwards, and Uranus was knocked over so that it rolls along sideways.

How do you know this?

OK, Tricia, you now have two theories as to why Venus is rotating slowly and retrograde . Don't ask which one to believe. Ask what observations we need to decide between them.

Gotcha. So how did you come to the conclusion that Venus was hit almost head on as you said before?

~Tricia

Question is, will she ever shut up?

Oolon Colluphid · 05-05-2002, 09:55 AM

Sorry Tricia, still busy, but here's a couple more quick points.

Ref giraffe necks: the implication of your / Martin's claim is that the halfway-evolved version wouldn't work. Well there's an animal that is a halfway version, and it seems to manage fine. It's the okapi:

It is the nearest living relative of the giraffe:

See the similarities?

Also note that it's found only in Africa, where giraffes, too, only live. Are there no tall trees and similar habitats elsewhere in the world where giraffes and okapis could live? Why are they only found in Africa -- and why both of them? Might they be related?

Ref the beaver's "little calculator in his head that tells him at what angle to swim with a log of a certain weight"... what little calculator? You mean his brain? Brains are capable of some remarkable calculations. But the key thing about them is that their owners don't need to know that the calculations are going on! Are you aware of the complex mathematics you're brain's performing when you catch a ball, predicting where it will be ahead of time and moving your hands to that place at the right moment? Of course not. Why does a beaver's 'little calculator' have to operate any differently? It can be preprogrammed for certain actions, and to learn how to amend these according to circumstances. If it can be programmed (or learn) to swim at all, it can learn to swim just the right way under varying conditions. All these things can come about by cumulative selection of random variations.

Cheers, Oolon

Oolon Colluphid · 05-05-2002, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tricia:
[b]

Question is, will she ever shut up?

I really hope not! You're doing great!

Oolon

hezekiah jones · 05-05-2002, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tricia:
How do you know? Obviously you weren’t there, so what dating methods are you using?
.....
As I said before, you don’t know for sure that the Big Bang actually occurred, so how can you be sure a “Big Crunch” will?
.....
If you never saw the Big Bang, how would you know the conditions are right for another one?
.....
How do you know?
.....
How do you know?
.....
How do you know?
.....
What?!?!
.....
How did it automatically “begin to shine”?
.....
So why isn’t there a big dent in the earth?
.....
I’ve never heard about the Late Bombardment before, could you explain it to me?
.....
How do you know this?
.....
Gotcha. So how did you come to the conclusion that Venus was hit almost head on as you said before?

Tricia, please do everyone a favor and get yourself an introductory level astronomy textbook.

RufusAtticus · 05-05-2002, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hezekiahjones:


Tricia, please do everyone a favor and get yourself an introductory level astronomy textbook.

And and introductory level evolutionary biology textbook like <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0878931899/internetinfidelsA" target="_blank">Douglas Futuyma's</a>.

-RvFvS

Coragyps · 05-05-2002, 02:46 PM

Re Oolon's post just above: <a href="http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/18mar_playingcatch.htm" target="_blank">Here</a> is an interesting article on how the human brain's programming on playing catch can be fooled by weightlessness. We seem to be, if not quite hardwired for ball-catching, at least pretty well programmed.

nogods4me · 05-05-2002, 03:04 PM

a litle searching on the net reveals that Dr. Jobe Martin runs a ministry, and has a website and the aforementioned video, Incredible Creatures that Defy Evolution, or some such, but the Dr. part is because he is a Dentist. Now I have nothing against dentists, well maybe a little, but that hardly qualifies him as an expert in the field of evolutionary biolgy.

Tricia · 05-05-2002, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hezekiahjones:


Tricia, please do everyone a favor and get yourself an introductory level astronomy textbook.

look, if you aren't answering any questions could you just leave me alone?

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05-05-2002, 09:41 AM	#133
Tricia Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: College Station, Tx Posts: 675	Hovind is confused here and a long way behind the times. The Big Bang happened about 15,000,000,000 years ago. Earth formed less than 5,000,000,000 years ago. How do you know? Obviously you weren�t there, so what dating methods are you using? As the galaxies in the universe get further and further apart their potential energy with respect to all the other galaxies is increasing. Energy is always conserved so their kinetic energy is decreasing, that is, they are slowing down. The big question is, will they ever come to a stop. If they do, they will turn round and fall back inwards, with all the potential energy being converted back to kinetic so they all come together in a Big Crunch. As I said before, you don�t know for sure that the Big Bang actually occurred, so how can you be sure a �Big Crunch� will? It has been speculated (and it's no more than speculation) that after the crunch the universe will rebound in another Big Bang. If you never saw the Big Bang, how would you know the conditions are right for another one? He's made up the bit about dirt. Yes, it was a tiny dot, but it was a dot of incredibly bright light. How do you know? Hovind is seriously confused here, but he's not alone, a lot of journalists have the same problem. He has confused the creation of the universe with the creation of the solar system. There's ten billion years difference. How do you know? Our sun and our solar system started off as a big cloud of dust and gas. How do you know? It was swirling about in all directions, but all the swirls didn't exactly cancel out. What?!?! So, at about the time that the sun started to shine How did it automatically �begin to shine�? The clumps got bigger and bigger and the collisions became more violent. At sometime late in this process the Earth was hit by a planet roughly the size of Mars. The collision destroyed the other planet, badly damaged the Earth, but some of the debris remained and collected together to form our moon. So why isn�t there a big dent in the earth? (Although the Earth collected a lot of extra stuff in what is called the Late Bombardment about 3,800,000,000 years ago.) I�ve never heard about the Late Bombardment before, could you explain it to me? but Venus was hit almost head on, so it hardly rotates at all, and that bit is backwards, and Uranus was knocked over so that it rolls along sideways. How do you know this? OK, Tricia, you now have two theories as to why Venus is rotating slowly and retrograde . Don't ask which one to believe. Ask what observations we need to decide between them. Gotcha. So how did you come to the conclusion that Venus was hit almost head on as you said before? ~Tricia Question is, will she ever shut up?

05-05-2002, 09:55 AM	#134
Oolon Colluphid Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Alibi: ego ipse hinc extermino Posts: 12,591	Sorry Tricia, still busy, but here's a couple more quick points. Ref giraffe necks: the implication of your / Martin's claim is that the halfway-evolved version wouldn't work. Well there's an animal that is a halfway version, and it seems to manage fine. It's the okapi: It is the nearest living relative of the giraffe: See the similarities? Also note that it's found only in Africa, where giraffes, too, only live. Are there no tall trees and similar habitats elsewhere in the world where giraffes and okapis could live? Why are they only found in Africa -- and why both of them? Might they be related? Ref the beaver's "little calculator in his head that tells him at what angle to swim with a log of a certain weight"... what little calculator? You mean his brain? Brains are capable of some remarkable calculations. But the key thing about them is that their owners don't need to know that the calculations are going on! Are you aware of the complex mathematics you're brain's performing when you catch a ball, predicting where it will be ahead of time and moving your hands to that place at the right moment? Of course not. Why does a beaver's 'little calculator' have to operate any differently? It can be preprogrammed for certain actions, and to learn how to amend these according to circumstances. If it can be programmed (or learn) to swim at all, it can learn to swim just the right way under varying conditions. All these things can come about by cumulative selection of random variations. Cheers, Oolon

05-05-2002, 02:46 PM	#138
Coragyps Veteran Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Snyder,Texas,USA Posts: 4,411	Re Oolon's post just above: <a href="http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/18mar_playingcatch.htm" target="_blank">Here</a> is an interesting article on how the human brain's programming on playing catch can be fooled by weightlessness. We seem to be, if not quite hardwired for ball-catching, at least pretty well programmed.

05-05-2002, 03:04 PM	#139
nogods4me Contributor Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 17,432	a litle searching on the net reveals that Dr. Jobe Martin runs a ministry, and has a website and the aforementioned video, Incredible Creatures that Defy Evolution, or some such, but the Dr. part is because he is a Dentist. Now I have nothing against dentists, well maybe a little, but that hardly qualifies him as an expert in the field of evolutionary biolgy.

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