Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dangin · 07-07-2003, 01:07 PM

A new female gorilla enters a troupe of other gorillas. She has a three week old infant. The male gorillas (particularly the alpha) will take the infant from her and kill it. Her breast milk will dry up and she will enter estrous sooner so that the males (particularly the alpha) have a chance to impregnate her.

Stray tom cats do the same thing with stray female litters in their territory.

If you hold all animals to the same standards, first trimester abortion is far more "humane" than infanticide.

If they(gorillas, cats, et al) could do it while the female was still pregnant they would.

And you still have not convinced anyone but yourself that sex is voluntary. As an individual action sex may be voluntary, but taken as a whole it clearly is not. That's why it is called a sex drive, not a sex decision.

And finally, it is far from evidenced that we take care of our children as a species. Some of us do exceptionally well at that, others. . .

You continually argue that any life (even one of abject misery) is better than the abortion of a fetus.

Vylo · 07-07-2003, 01:22 PM

Those cases are still not abortion.

As for sex drive, we have drives to do many things, yet we can still resist them. Anyone with enough willpower can resist having sex, if they do not desire any possible baggage that accompanies it.

dangin · 07-07-2003, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vylo
Those cases are still not abortion.

As for sex drive, we have drives to do many things, yet we can still resist them. Anyone with enough willpower can resist having sex, if they do not desire any possible baggage that accompanies it.

No, they are far more heinous than abortion. If it was human behavior, I hazard to guess that you would be screaming to the trees about it.

You talk about willpower to resist sex like resisting is a good thing. How's your sex life? Are we having a conversation with someone who views sex as a normal, clean, and regular part of human activity, or is it something dirty? Bad things can happen with sex. But diseases are spread by breathing too. Should we resist our respiratory system as well?

Vylo · 07-08-2003, 07:26 AM

I spent last night considering questions I had raised in this thread. I do consider sex to be a normal and healthy thing, although I myself stray from it do to baggage that accompanies it. Forgive me for not giving direct credit who said it, but someone stated that people had taken responsibility by using contraceptives. After thinking about it, this person's statement was very true. That made me think about a possible temporary solution that could be used until such a time that abortion would not be needed (the possibility of being able to transplant a human fetus removed from a mother who does not desire the child). To make these abortions of convienience, as I have called them, legal, but on the condition that it can be proved that a legally accepted contraceptive was used. I am fairly certain that some type of trace could be put upon birth control pills, so as to prove a women took them around the time of conception. In this way sexual activity would not be inhibited, and only those so thoughtless as to ignore these contraceptives would be held to their responsilbity.

In doing these though we must make these contraceptives readily available, so that those who are lower income would also have access to them. Healthcare plans for lower income individuals could probably handle that task.

I apologize if I upset anyone with this thread, but I do believe heavily in the sanctity of human life, even that which is still developing. However I should have taken into account how hard it is to avoid certain circumstances.

dangin · 07-08-2003, 07:55 AM

Vylo, that all sounds really good. It's good to think and rethink, and then think some more. If you think about anything now. That sanctity of human life poetry there is something you should consider. I think that statement implies a special status for humans which does not really exist except in your mind because you are also human. A gazelle wants to have "sanctity" of life as a cheetah is bringing it down, but that won't save the gazelle. Life and death have to go together. You're applying utility to life only if it has length, and long life is not always how it works.

Vylo · 07-08-2003, 08:06 AM

Quote:

I think that statement implies a special status for humans which does not really exist except in your mind because you are also human.

True, but the fact remains I am human, and I will remain true to my instinctive nature to protect my species.

cheetah · 07-08-2003, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vylo

In doing these though we must make these contraceptives readily available, so that those who are lower income would also have access to them. Healthcare plans for lower income individuals could probably handle that task.

HAHA! This is the first time I have ever heard a pro-lifer admit that making contraceptives more readily available is a good idea! And you know what? with or without your contraceptive tracking program, greater use of contraceptives, and education about them, would undoubtedly reduce the need and desire for abortions in this country. Now, isn't that something we can ALL agree on?!

Vylo · 07-08-2003, 09:29 AM

Yep cheetah, absolutely. It also appears, at least from studies comparing American vs netherland families, that having a greater amount of trust and acceptance of adolescent sexuality also reduces the risk of unwanted pregnancy. Probably because the teenagers there dont have to deal with the stigma towards sex that many american parents have.

Ab_Normal · 07-08-2003, 10:56 AM

Just a side note: My contraception failure will be ten years old next month.

Your idea of making abortions available only to those who used birth control is... interesting. But that only works for pharmaceutical contraception. There are women who can't use the Pill who must rely on barrier methods. How could a woman prove that she and her partner used a barrier method? Pictures?

yguy · 07-08-2003, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dangin
Vylo, that all sounds really good. It's good to think and rethink, and then think some more. If you think about anything now. That sanctity of human life poetry there is something you should consider. I think that statement implies a special status for humans which does not really exist except in your mind because you are also human. A gazelle wants to have "sanctity" of life as a cheetah is bringing it down, but that won't save the gazelle. Life and death have to go together. You're applying utility to life only if it has length, and long life is not always how it works.

If the sancitity of life of humans is illusory, what's wrong with infanticide?

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07-07-2003, 01:07 PM	#81
dangin Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: The Middle, Kansas Posts: 2,637	A new female gorilla enters a troupe of other gorillas. She has a three week old infant. The male gorillas (particularly the alpha) will take the infant from her and kill it. Her breast milk will dry up and she will enter estrous sooner so that the males (particularly the alpha) have a chance to impregnate her. Stray tom cats do the same thing with stray female litters in their territory. If you hold all animals to the same standards, first trimester abortion is far more "humane" than infanticide. If they(gorillas, cats, et al) could do it while the female was still pregnant they would. And you still have not convinced anyone but yourself that sex is voluntary. As an individual action sex may be voluntary, but taken as a whole it clearly is not. That's why it is called a sex drive, not a sex decision. And finally, it is far from evidenced that we take care of our children as a species. Some of us do exceptionally well at that, others. . . You continually argue that any life (even one of abject misery) is better than the abortion of a fetus.

07-07-2003, 01:22 PM	#82
Vylo Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: washington, NJ 07882 Posts: 253	Those cases are still not abortion. As for sex drive, we have drives to do many things, yet we can still resist them. Anyone with enough willpower can resist having sex, if they do not desire any possible baggage that accompanies it.

07-08-2003, 07:26 AM	#84
Vylo Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: washington, NJ 07882 Posts: 253	I spent last night considering questions I had raised in this thread. I do consider sex to be a normal and healthy thing, although I myself stray from it do to baggage that accompanies it. Forgive me for not giving direct credit who said it, but someone stated that people had taken responsibility by using contraceptives. After thinking about it, this person's statement was very true. That made me think about a possible temporary solution that could be used until such a time that abortion would not be needed (the possibility of being able to transplant a human fetus removed from a mother who does not desire the child). To make these abortions of convienience, as I have called them, legal, but on the condition that it can be proved that a legally accepted contraceptive was used. I am fairly certain that some type of trace could be put upon birth control pills, so as to prove a women took them around the time of conception. In this way sexual activity would not be inhibited, and only those so thoughtless as to ignore these contraceptives would be held to their responsilbity. In doing these though we must make these contraceptives readily available, so that those who are lower income would also have access to them. Healthcare plans for lower income individuals could probably handle that task. I apologize if I upset anyone with this thread, but I do believe heavily in the sanctity of human life, even that which is still developing. However I should have taken into account how hard it is to avoid certain circumstances.

07-08-2003, 07:55 AM	#85
dangin Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: The Middle, Kansas Posts: 2,637	Vylo, that all sounds really good. It's good to think and rethink, and then think some more. If you think about anything now. That sanctity of human life poetry there is something you should consider. I think that statement implies a special status for humans which does not really exist except in your mind because you are also human. A gazelle wants to have "sanctity" of life as a cheetah is bringing it down, but that won't save the gazelle. Life and death have to go together. You're applying utility to life only if it has length, and long life is not always how it works.

07-08-2003, 09:29 AM	#88
Vylo Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: washington, NJ 07882 Posts: 253	Yep cheetah, absolutely. It also appears, at least from studies comparing American vs netherland families, that having a greater amount of trust and acceptance of adolescent sexuality also reduces the risk of unwanted pregnancy. Probably because the teenagers there dont have to deal with the stigma towards sex that many american parents have.

07-08-2003, 10:56 AM	#89
Ab_Normal Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,842	Just a side note: My contraception failure will be ten years old next month. Your idea of making abortions available only to those who used birth control is... interesting. But that only works for pharmaceutical contraception. There are women who can't use the Pill who must rely on barrier methods. How could a woman prove that she and her partner used a barrier method? Pictures?

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